Interesting. I started doing business with the bank when I was about 12 and that was a very long time ago.
For the past 40 years of my life the banking system has been relatively free. Don't get me started on the Federal Reserve.
Until recent the government only regulated the banks (not completely true).
I've never gotten a loan from the Government. Would not know how. Anytime the government gets involved in business it is bad. Look at GM.
The money will not come from the banks either. Look at the housing market in Phoenix. There is a recovery in process. Houses get multiple bids. Sure things are on the low end of the scale right now. Where is the money coming from? Private investors. We are in a recovery that the government had nothing to do with.
If you look to the government for your business investment you will be looking to them for what car you can drive and what food you can eat. And if you do not eat right and exercise you will not get that great wait in line for 6 months health care.
Government is not your friend and it is not the answer.
You are very skilled and very talented. Start your own gig from your living room or your spare bedroom.
Need ideas? Get down to the plank. Hang out, come up with a 2 page business plan and make it happen.
It takes the average person something like 7 to 11 failures to find the success.
Get out there and mix it up. Make your own success. What will you do? Look in your heart - the answer is written there.
The waves are crashing and your board is awaitin'.
------------------------
Keith Smith
--- On Sat, 8/1/09, Joshua Zeidner <
jjzeidner@gmail.com> wrote:
> From: Joshua Zeidner <jjzeidner@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in PHX
> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" <plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 8:12 PM
> I think these kinds of things
> are the key to Phoenix moving forward.
> Clearly we can't just build retirement homes.
> Question is how to
> model innovation. Its difficult because different
> people with
> different agendas try to influence the process.
>
> While I respect Keith's argument of minimal govt,
> and certainly
> recognize this is an important part of AZ identity...
> problem is that
> organizing is near impossible without at least some level
> of capital.
> So programs and industry are not really going to develop
> that are in
> the real interest of arizonans without that govt
> involvement. As much
> as we all love these Davey Crockett business types out
> here, you have
> to think realistically.
>
> -jmz
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 7:58 PM, Lyle Tuttle<L.tuttle@cox.net>
> wrote:
> > The city of Surprise has moved into a new city hall
> complex, and are turning
> > the old offices / building into a "start-up" or
> incubator for new or
> > emerging businesses.
> >
> > lyle tuttle
> >
> > At 07:50 PM 8/1/2009, you wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 6:50 PM, keith smith<klsmith2020@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> I think what is really missing from this equation
> is mentoring and
> >> training.
> >
> > what I would like to see is some real support from
> AZ government to
> > help make tech companies feel welcome here. This
> means:
> >
> > 1) making the valley a good place not only to build
> a company but to
> > build a *career*. this means buy in from both sides
> of the equation.
> > I would like to see a bit more address at lower
> capital levels, but
> > that may prove to be difficult. It seems that most
> existing concepts
> > are kind of stuck in the industrial model, where you
> build a factory
> > in a place with low taxes and hire low wage workers,
> but technology
> > requires high wage workers who demand a good thriving
> job market. The
> > needs are quite different. The biggest issue with
> starting a company
> > out here is finding people. Where are all the
> people? in CA.
> > because it has a good job market. If we can
> outsource to India, we
> > sure as hell can outsource to Arizona.
> >
> > 2) setting up low cost legal structure and as you
> say mentoring to
> > really help stimulate technology development. We've
> seen (at least
> > nominal) efforts in the past. Why did they fail?
> This means real and
> > adequate assistance in bringing concepts to production
> and market. A
> > small investment in this area will yield returns in
> tax base and
> > property value by a factor of hundreds. Arizona has
> the potential to
> > pick up a lot of this commercial activity because
> California is
> > currently set to become a tax strapped nightmare state
> to build your
> > business. If AZ fails to see the opportunity here,
> we will lose out
> > big time. Currently the budget proceedings are still
> in gridlock.
> >
> > the mayor of Phoenix seems to have the right idea,
> he was suggesting
> > recently a green technology center near Phx center.
> I think thats the
> > direction AZ needs to go. -jmz
> >
> >>
> >> I like the idea that folks are getting together to
> network. This is a
> >> really cool idea. Even for non-technical stuff
> like finding out how people
> >> deal with customers, contracting, book-keeping,
> ETC.
> >>
> >> ------------------------
> >> Keith Smith
> >>
> >>
> >> --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Joshua Zeidner <jjzeidner@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> From: Joshua Zeidner <jjzeidner@gmail.com>
> >>> Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to
> do in PHX
> >>> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" <plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
> >>> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 6:08 PM
> >>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:09 PM,
> >>> Alan Dayley<alandd@consultpros.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> > Joshua,
> >>> >
> >>> > I put all your replies together in one
> long document
> >>> and reread them.
> >>> > I am still confused a bit.
> Enlightenment via email
> >>> rarely occurs.
> >>> > However, I really want to understand your
> position in
> >>> this discussion.
> >>> > Let me summarize what I understand from
> your
> >>> replies.
> >>> >
> >>> > ---[Start my paraphasing of your
> comments]---
> >>> >
> >>> > - There is a small group or groups of
> people who keep
> >>> spinning off
> >>> > communities using tired marketing
> techniques. This
> >>> results in blogs
> >>> > but not true communities.
> >>> >
> >>> > - Some of these people cannot deal with
> existing
> >>> structure and the
> >>> > efforts of the past.
> >>> >
> >>> > - These weak attempts do not articulate
> goals or
> >>> purpose well, if at all.
> >>> >
> >>> > - We must honestly look at criticism to
> learn and
> >>> improve.
> >>> >
> >>> > - These weak people need to address the
> efforts of the
> >>> past and
> >>> > provide suggestions on how they can be
> improved upon.
> >>> >
> >>> > - Getting political support will provide
> legitimacy to
> >>> their efforts.
> >>> >
> >>> > - Phoenix will attract technology
> businesses because
> >>> of the relative
> >>> > low cost and this will help improve
> things.
> >>> >
> >>> > - You have first hand experiences of
> weak, marketing
> >>> fronted,
> >>> > community building efforts.
> >>> >
> >>> > - Many 'entrepreneurs' have grand ideas
> but get
> >>> nowhere with them
> >>> > because they are not real businesses.
> >>> >
> >>> > - People at a co-working location or
> coffee shop will
> >>> not help you
> >>> > with your business unless you pay them.
> >>> >
> >>> > - Most people at co-working started their
> one person
> >>> business after
> >>> > being laid-off and are not serious about
> it. They
> >>> are really just
> >>> > looking for the next full time gig.
> This will get in
> >>> your way if you
> >>> > have real business work to do.
> >>> >
> >>> > - We must look truthfully at this issue
> if we are to
> >>> make progress.
> >>> >
> >>> > - There are no serious incubators and
> entrepreneurial
> >>> meetups in
> >>> > Phoenix. No announcements on VC funding
> of companies
> >>> so it's not
> >>> > really entrepreneurial growth.
> >>> >
> >>> > ---[End my paraphrasing of your
> comments]---
> >>> >
> >>> > I see validity in every one of these
> comments. I
> >>> also think many of
> >>> > them can be balanced by the other point
> of view. I
> >>> still have
> >>> > questions, if I may ask, before I state
> too much of my
> >>> own thinking.
> >>> > I want to learn more about your
> thinking.
> >>> >
> >>> > 1. What does "deal with existing
> structure" mean?
> >>> This confuses me,
> >>> > not know what structure you are talking
> about.
> >>>
> >>> Many user groups have been formed and
> continue to
> >>> exist... how is
> >>> <groupX> different? other than its led
> by
> >>> person Y? I mean dealing
> >>> with some of these groups I feel like Im back
> to age 8
> >>> trying to gain
> >>> admittance into the neighborhood treehouse.
> Perhaps I
> >>> should spend
> >>> more time drinking beer with these people?
> Seeing the
> >>> same small
> >>> group churning out 'communities' is at first
> funny, then
> >>> annoying. I
> >>> just see a real lack of serious intent, and
> unless that is
> >>> noted
> >>> publicly, it makes all of us look bad. I
> really dont
> >>> think Im being
> >>> destructive or malicious here, Im pointing out
> some valid
> >>> observations.
> >>>
> >>> >
> >>> > 2. To what efforts of the past are you
> referring? I
> >>> want to
> >>> > understand the size and nature of efforts
> to creating
> >>> a community that
> >>> > you feel were legitimate but perhaps did
> not work as
> >>> planned.
> >>>
> >>> I remember when I first came to AZ that
> there was an
> >>> tech
> >>> incubator... what happened to it? Which
> >>> political agents currently
> >>> support technology development in the
> valley? what do
> >>> they think
> >>> about your org? these things are pretty
> basic...
> >>>
> >>> >
> >>> > 3. What political support is needed?
> You mean
> >>> government funding of
> >>> > events or startups or just verbal support
> or what?
> >>>
> >>> I wouldn't expect funding, but it would be
> good to
> >>> see some
> >>> political buy in. Lack of just supports my
> opinions,
> >>> that its really
> >>> as Lisa said, camouflage for poor
> organization.
> >>> Without any good
> >>> signposts, all this will produce are people
> who get jaded
> >>> and
> >>> disaffected with regards to this location.
> If you had
> >>> something
> >>> together I doubt that a good politician would
> turn you
> >>> down.
> >>>
> >>> >
> >>> > 4. Why is it wrong or a problem for
> someone who is
> >>> laid-off to have
> >>> > grand ideas, talk about them and they
> never come to
> >>> be?
> >>>
> >>> Its not. As I said, I don't find any of
> these
> >>> things highly
> >>> offensive- but like you I am free to express
> myself.
> >>> Sorry if its not
> >>> filled with abundant exaltations.
> >>>
> >>> >
> >>> > 5. Is it not conceivable that people
> might help each
> >>> other in business
> >>> > efforts? Isn't strengthening and
> creating such a
> >>> culture a good idea
> >>> > or should such a goal not be pursued
> because it is not
> >>> practically
> >>> > possible?
> >>>
> >>> sure. good thread btw. -jmz
> >>>
> >>> >
> >>> > Alan
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Joshua
> Zeidner<jjzeidner@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> >> another great one:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> "OK, my question stands. Where are
> the incubators,
> >>> the "bootstrap"
> >>> >> seminars, the serious entrepreneurial
> meetups in
> >>> Phoenix??? (crickets
> >>> >> chirping). Phoenix just ain't
> happening as a
> >>> serious place where
> >>> >> serious people are doing serious
> things. No one
> >>> wants it badly enough
> >>> >> here. This paper should be having at
> least one
> >>> article a week on a new
> >>> >> startup and the VC firm who funded
> it.
> >>> Helloooo????? is anybody out
> >>> >> there...."
> >>> >>
> >>> >> a better way to phrase this: we need
> to stop
> >>> pretending these
> >>> >> whimsical efforts churned out by
> local
> >>> self-employed marketing experts
> >>> >> are sufficient. They are not. We
> should be
> >>> asking the hard
> >>> >> questions, not playing games.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> -jmz
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:04 PM,
> Joshua
> >>> Zeidner<jjzeidner@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> >>> another point, honestly reading
> through some
> >>> of the criticisms on
> >>> >>> azcentral and being of the cafe
> dwelling creed
> >>> myself, I'd have to say
> >>> >>> that many of those points are
> accurate. I've
> >>> heard lots of
> >>> >>> 'entrepreneurs' with big ideas
> around here who
> >>> never get anywhere with
> >>> >>> them. Sorry, but a word press
> template
> >>> doesn't make you an
> >>> >>> entrepreneur.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> "These are the same people you
> see at
> >>> Starbucks, Boarders or any
> >>> >>> other wi-fi hot spot, they are
> not
> >>> entrepreneurs they are attention
> >>> >>> (inappropriate term)."
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> "Many of the Co-Worker location
> founders
> >>> tout other people to
> >>> >>> collaborate with and who can
> "compensate for
> >>> your deficiencies". Do
> >>> >>> you really believe someone that
> you are not
> >>> paying as an employee is
> >>> >>> going to somehow compensate for
> your
> >>> deficiencies and make your
> >>> >>> business better? That kind of
> help doesn't
> >>> come without a price."
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> oh so true...
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> "You are more likely to get a
> bunch of
> >>> people chatting to you over
> >>> >>> your "work" so you wont be
> concentrating as
> >>> you should to focus on
> >>> >>> your business. Most of these
> people started
> >>> businesses after being
> >>> >>> laid off. They are searching for
> a new job and
> >>> they aren't really
> >>> >>> serious about their "businesses"
> so how do you
> >>> expect them to give you
> >>> >>> valuable, serious advice. Are
> these the kind
> >>> of people you need to
> >>> >>> compensate for your deficiencies?
> A bunch of
> >>> people half-as running
> >>> >>> their "business" while searching
> for a real
> >>> job and bothering you with
> >>> >>> their expertise that got them
> laid off in the
> >>> first place."
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> oh so so true...
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> I would be willing to bet the
> commenter
> >>> above is an tried and true
> >>> >>> successful entrepreneur.
> Perhaps the reason
> >>> I am so skeptical is
> >>> >>> because I know these kind of
> people so well.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> sorry I really wish I could be
> more
> >>> supportive... but : truth is
> >>> >>> the foundation of progress.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> -jmz
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:28 PM,
> Joshua
> >>> Zeidner<jjzeidner@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> >>>> Alan,
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> Wish I had time to
> respond to all
> >>> these points right now, not sure
> >>> >>>> you read me the way I would
> prefer
> >>> however. Its not so grave a
> >>> >>>> warning, just getting the
> word out on my
> >>> first hand experiences. Im
> >>> >>>> just one of many- but
> hopefully an
> >>> impartial observer and someone
> >>> >>>> genuinely concerned for AZ.
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> all the best, jmz
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:12
> PM, Alan
> >>> Dayley<alandd@consultpros.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> >>>>> Josh,
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> I feel warned. And I
> don't
> >>> understand the reason for such a strong
> warning.
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> There are people in every
> industry,
> >>> government or community who wish
> >>> >>>>> to fleece their
> "community" for their
> >>> own profit instead of mutual
> >>> >>>>> benefit. The trick is
> to find the
> >>> positive people and ignore the
> >>> >>>>> rest. Apply the same
> filter with
> >>> every event, group or blogger in the
> >>> >>>>> lists and links I
> provided. I don't
> >>> expect bloggers or techies to be
> >>> >>>>> any different, as if
> being techie
> >>> makes one a saint.
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> Some of those bloggers
> are purely
> >>> commercial or completely neglected,
> >>> >>>>> I'm sure. Some of the
> groups or
> >>> events or sites listed are lousy,
> >>> >>>>> boring or poor marketing
> excuses to
> >>> sell something. Some are not out
> >>> >>>>> to create community but
> to build a
> >>> "kingdom" for their own benefit.
> >>> >>>>> They are the duds.
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> Let's look at a few
> positives:
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> - Read the Gangplank
> Manifesto on
> >>> their home page at
> >>> >>>>> http://gangplankhq.com. That looks like
> >>> a great articulation of their
> >>> >>>>> goals and purpose. Ones
> I strongly
> >>> support!
> >>> >>>>> -- Read how the manifesto
> came to be
> >>> on Derek's blog at
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> http://derekneighbors.com/2009/07/collaborative-writing-or-how-the-gangplank-manifesto-was-written/
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> - Gangplank has hosted or
> is hosting:
> >>> >>>>> -- MobiFest - a day long
> conference on
> >>> developing for phones like
> >>> >>>>> iPhone or Android
> >>> >>>>> -- Gangplank Jr. - a 2-3
> hour Saturday
> >>> event for kids 5-15 to learn
> >>> >>>>> programming concepts
> >>> >>>>> -- Wordpress training
> classes for
> >>> minimal cost or no-cost for non-profit orgs
> >>> >>>>> -- Laid Off Camp - a day
> long
> >>> conference on job searching and
> entreprenuership
> >>> >>>>> -- Barcamp Pheonix - a
> day long
> >>> conference on software development
> >>> >>>>> -- TEDx night - Watch
> ted.com videos
> >>> and discuss them
> >>> >>>>> -- OpenPhoenix - a night
> of open mic
> >>> music and entertainment
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> - The last http://desertcodecamp.com/ was held on June 13th and
> >>> nearly
> >>> >>>>> filled DeVry's Phoenix
> campus with
> >>> developers talking about code or
> >>> >>>>> making code. Free lunch
> of pizza and
> >>> sub sandwiches was provided too.
> >>> >>>>> Put together by
> volunteers.
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> - If you're into
> Microsoft based
> >>> development tech, the people who
> >>> >>>>> maintain the http://azgroups.com site do an annual all-day event at
> >>> >>>>> venues like the Orphium
> Theater and at
> >>> no cost to attendees. Fine,
> >>> >>>>> it's marketing for MS but
> it's put on
> >>> by volunteers here in the valley
> >>> >>>>> and a great way for
> people to learn
> >>> about things that improve their
> >>> >>>>> career skills.
> >>> >>>>> (
> >>> >>>>> http://www.componentart.com/BLOGS/milos/archive/2009/06/02/scott-guthrie-event-2009-phoenix-az.aspx
> >>> >>>>> )
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> - The local Ruby On Rails
> group has
> >>> monthly meetings with around 30
> >>> >>>>> regularly in attendance.
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> - The Java group is also
> well attended
> >>> every month.
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> - The third http://podcampaz.com/ is coming up in November, put on
> >>> by
> >>> >>>>> voluteers at no cost
> (donation
> >>> requested) to attendees. Had about 350
> >>> >>>>> people attend last year
> (if I recall)
> >>> for two days of conference.
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> - The http://azentrepreneurship.com/ conference will be in
> >>> November
> >>> >>>>> for the forth year.
> This one costs
> >>> $100+ but should be as well
> >>> >>>>> attended as last year
> with 200+
> >>> people. Funded and organized in part
> >>> >>>>> by a local venture
> capital group.
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> - The first http://ignitephoenix.com event was held a year ago
> with
> >>> a
> >>> >>>>> little over 100 in
> attendance and has
> >>> grown to fill the 600 seat
> >>> >>>>> Theather at Tempe Center
> for the Arts
> >>> back in June. The connections
> >>> >>>>> made there live well past
> the event.
> >>> >>>>> -- Oh, a city council
> member and the
> >>> mayor of Tempe spoke this last
> >>> >>>>> time, though he was a bit
> silly trying
> >>> to be Tempe exclusive. That
> >>> >>>>> seems to be at least
> verbal political
> >>> support.
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> - The second ABLEConf on
> FS/OSS is
> >>> being planned for October and
> >>> >>>>> should be better than
> last year. (Go
> >>> Hans and team!)
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> I'm not going to go on,
> though I could
> >>> point out several purely social
> >>> >>>>> events like http://phoenixfridaynights.com/, it's east and west
> >>> valley
> >>> >>>>> analogs, East Valley
> Thursday Morning
> >>> breakfasts, Tempe Geeks Lunch,
> >>> >>>>> South Valley Geek Meet
> and Eat and
> >>> Gangplank's Brown Gag lunch
> >>> >>>>> presentations every
> Wednesday.
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> Now, having said all of
> that "giddy
> >>> blind optimism," I'd like to
> >>> >>>>> understand how the above
> does not
> >>> address the efforts of the past or
> >>> >>>>> provide improvement over
> past efforts.
> >>> What are the real needs of the
> >>> >>>>> community, if not some of
> the above?
> >>> What would you suggest? How can
> >>> >>>>> PLUG be a part of it?
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> Alan
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at
> 1:34 PM,
> >>> Joshua Zeidner<jjzeidner@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> >>>>>> Alan,
> >>> >>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>> while I
> appreciate your post,
> >>> and anyone who is making a sincere
> >>> >>>>>> effort to build
> community in
> >>> Phoenix... be warned. There are some
> >>> >>>>>> small groups who
> periodically
> >>> spawn off new 'communities' every month
> >>> >>>>>> or so. Look closely
> and you see
> >>> the same few people with reused
> >>> >>>>>> marketing recipes.
> Lots of blog
> >>> and not too much community I'm
> >>> >>>>>> afraid. Their
> efforts amount to
> >>> some simple branding and putting up a
> >>> >>>>>> blog. While these
> things are not
> >>> really particularily offensive to
> >>> >>>>>> me, they do somewhat
> detract from
> >>> interest in the real needs of the
> >>> >>>>>> community here.
> Some of these
> >>> people are just outright idiotic and
> >>> >>>>>> cannot deal with
> existing
> >>> structure and refuse to accept the history
> >>> >>>>>> of efforts in the
> past. They
> >>> lack any articulation of their goals and
> >>> >>>>>> purpose. Often
> times they have
> >>> trouble organizing even small groups
> >>> >>>>>> of 2 or 3. Dont
> forget we've had
> >>> a tech incubator here. Lets not
> >>> >>>>>> smack down sincere
> criticism in
> >>> favor of giddy blind optimism,
> >>> >>>>>> remember you can't
> improve without
> >>> criticism. I would take these
> >>> >>>>>> people much more
> seriously if they
> >>> addressed the efforts of the past
> >>> >>>>>> and perhaps suggested
> how they are
> >>> going to improve on them, or
> >>> >>>>>> perhaps indicate what
> has changed
> >>> that will make them a success.
> >>> >>>>>> Maybe seeking real
> political
> >>> support would gain some legitimacy.
> >>> >>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>> on the positive
> side, I think
> >>> Phoenix will attract a lot of
> >>> >>>>>> technology business
> due to its
> >>> relative low cost and no doubt you will
> >>> >>>>>> start to see
> community
> >>> infrastructure grow. We are seeing some
> real
> >>> >>>>>> urban development
> happening in Phx
> >>> metro which has me very excited. I
> >>> >>>>>> think when the
> macroeconomic
> >>> problems are sorted out we will see
> >>> >>>>>> downtown Phx bloom.
> Im hoping
> >>> that the average Arizonan gets involved
> >>> >>>>>> in the political
> process and make
> >>> sure that the corruption stays out
> >>> >>>>>> of city and state
> politics.
> >>> Coming from NY, Im recognizing a lot of
> >>> >>>>>> positive development
> trends in Phx
> >>> metro.
> >>> >>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>> -jmz
> >>> >>>>>
> >>>
> ---------------------------------------------------
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> - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
> >>> >>>>> To subscribe,
> unsubscribe, or to
> >>> change your mail settings:
> >>> >>>>> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>
> >>>
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