I think these kinds of things are the key to Phoenix moving forward.
Clearly we can't just build retirement homes. Question is how to
model innovation. Its difficult because different people with
different agendas try to influence the process.
While I respect Keith's argument of minimal govt, and certainly
recognize this is an important part of AZ identity... problem is that
organizing is near impossible without at least some level of capital.
So programs and industry are not really going to develop that are in
the real interest of arizonans without that govt involvement. As much
as we all love these Davey Crockett business types out here, you have
to think realistically.
-jmz
On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 7:58 PM, Lyle Tuttle<
L.tuttle@cox.net> wrote:
> The city of Surprise has moved into a new city hall complex, and are turning
> the old offices / building into a "start-up" or incubator for new or
> emerging businesses.
>
> lyle tuttle
>
> At 07:50 PM 8/1/2009, you wrote:
>
> On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 6:50 PM, keith smith<klsmith2020@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I think what is really missing from this equation is mentoring and
>> training.
>
> what I would like to see is some real support from AZ government to
> help make tech companies feel welcome here. This means:
>
> 1) making the valley a good place not only to build a company but to
> build a *career*. this means buy in from both sides of the equation.
> I would like to see a bit more address at lower capital levels, but
> that may prove to be difficult. It seems that most existing concepts
> are kind of stuck in the industrial model, where you build a factory
> in a place with low taxes and hire low wage workers, but technology
> requires high wage workers who demand a good thriving job market. The
> needs are quite different. The biggest issue with starting a company
> out here is finding people. Where are all the people? in CA.
> because it has a good job market. If we can outsource to India, we
> sure as hell can outsource to Arizona.
>
> 2) setting up low cost legal structure and as you say mentoring to
> really help stimulate technology development. We've seen (at least
> nominal) efforts in the past. Why did they fail? This means real and
> adequate assistance in bringing concepts to production and market. A
> small investment in this area will yield returns in tax base and
> property value by a factor of hundreds. Arizona has the potential to
> pick up a lot of this commercial activity because California is
> currently set to become a tax strapped nightmare state to build your
> business. If AZ fails to see the opportunity here, we will lose out
> big time. Currently the budget proceedings are still in gridlock.
>
> the mayor of Phoenix seems to have the right idea, he was suggesting
> recently a green technology center near Phx center. I think thats the
> direction AZ needs to go. -jmz
>
>>
>> I like the idea that folks are getting together to network. This is a
>> really cool idea. Even for non-technical stuff like finding out how people
>> deal with customers, contracting, book-keeping, ETC.
>>
>> ------------------------
>> Keith Smith
>>
>>
>> --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Joshua Zeidner <jjzeidner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> From: Joshua Zeidner <jjzeidner@gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in PHX
>>> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" <plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
>>> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 6:08 PM
>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:09 PM,
>>> Alan Dayley<alandd@consultpros.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > Joshua,
>>> >
>>> > I put all your replies together in one long document
>>> and reread them.
>>> > I am still confused a bit. Enlightenment via email
>>> rarely occurs.
>>> > However, I really want to understand your position in
>>> this discussion.
>>> > Let me summarize what I understand from your
>>> replies.
>>> >
>>> > ---[Start my paraphasing of your comments]---
>>> >
>>> > - There is a small group or groups of people who keep
>>> spinning off
>>> > communities using tired marketing techniques. This
>>> results in blogs
>>> > but not true communities.
>>> >
>>> > - Some of these people cannot deal with existing
>>> structure and the
>>> > efforts of the past.
>>> >
>>> > - These weak attempts do not articulate goals or
>>> purpose well, if at all.
>>> >
>>> > - We must honestly look at criticism to learn and
>>> improve.
>>> >
>>> > - These weak people need to address the efforts of the
>>> past and
>>> > provide suggestions on how they can be improved upon.
>>> >
>>> > - Getting political support will provide legitimacy to
>>> their efforts.
>>> >
>>> > - Phoenix will attract technology businesses because
>>> of the relative
>>> > low cost and this will help improve things.
>>> >
>>> > - You have first hand experiences of weak, marketing
>>> fronted,
>>> > community building efforts.
>>> >
>>> > - Many 'entrepreneurs' have grand ideas but get
>>> nowhere with them
>>> > because they are not real businesses.
>>> >
>>> > - People at a co-working location or coffee shop will
>>> not help you
>>> > with your business unless you pay them.
>>> >
>>> > - Most people at co-working started their one person
>>> business after
>>> > being laid-off and are not serious about it. They
>>> are really just
>>> > looking for the next full time gig. This will get in
>>> your way if you
>>> > have real business work to do.
>>> >
>>> > - We must look truthfully at this issue if we are to
>>> make progress.
>>> >
>>> > - There are no serious incubators and entrepreneurial
>>> meetups in
>>> > Phoenix. No announcements on VC funding of companies
>>> so it's not
>>> > really entrepreneurial growth.
>>> >
>>> > ---[End my paraphrasing of your comments]---
>>> >
>>> > I see validity in every one of these comments. I
>>> also think many of
>>> > them can be balanced by the other point of view. I
>>> still have
>>> > questions, if I may ask, before I state too much of my
>>> own thinking.
>>> > I want to learn more about your thinking.
>>> >
>>> > 1. What does "deal with existing structure" mean?
>>> This confuses me,
>>> > not know what structure you are talking about.
>>>
>>> Many user groups have been formed and continue to
>>> exist... how is
>>> <groupX> different? other than its led by
>>> person Y? I mean dealing
>>> with some of these groups I feel like Im back to age 8
>>> trying to gain
>>> admittance into the neighborhood treehouse. Perhaps I
>>> should spend
>>> more time drinking beer with these people? Seeing the
>>> same small
>>> group churning out 'communities' is at first funny, then
>>> annoying. I
>>> just see a real lack of serious intent, and unless that is
>>> noted
>>> publicly, it makes all of us look bad. I really dont
>>> think Im being
>>> destructive or malicious here, Im pointing out some valid
>>> observations.
>>>
>>> >
>>> > 2. To what efforts of the past are you referring? I
>>> want to
>>> > understand the size and nature of efforts to creating
>>> a community that
>>> > you feel were legitimate but perhaps did not work as
>>> planned.
>>>
>>> I remember when I first came to AZ that there was an
>>> tech
>>> incubator... what happened to it? Which
>>> political agents currently
>>> support technology development in the valley? what do
>>> they think
>>> about your org? these things are pretty basic...
>>>
>>> >
>>> > 3. What political support is needed? You mean
>>> government funding of
>>> > events or startups or just verbal support or what?
>>>
>>> I wouldn't expect funding, but it would be good to
>>> see some
>>> political buy in. Lack of just supports my opinions,
>>> that its really
>>> as Lisa said, camouflage for poor organization.
>>> Without any good
>>> signposts, all this will produce are people who get jaded
>>> and
>>> disaffected with regards to this location. If you had
>>> something
>>> together I doubt that a good politician would turn you
>>> down.
>>>
>>> >
>>> > 4. Why is it wrong or a problem for someone who is
>>> laid-off to have
>>> > grand ideas, talk about them and they never come to
>>> be?
>>>
>>> Its not. As I said, I don't find any of these
>>> things highly
>>> offensive- but like you I am free to express myself.
>>> Sorry if its not
>>> filled with abundant exaltations.
>>>
>>> >
>>> > 5. Is it not conceivable that people might help each
>>> other in business
>>> > efforts? Isn't strengthening and creating such a
>>> culture a good idea
>>> > or should such a goal not be pursued because it is not
>>> practically
>>> > possible?
>>>
>>> sure. good thread btw. -jmz
>>>
>>> >
>>> > Alan
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Joshua Zeidner<jjzeidner@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >> another great one:
>>> >>
>>> >> "OK, my question stands. Where are the incubators,
>>> the "bootstrap"
>>> >> seminars, the serious entrepreneurial meetups in
>>> Phoenix??? (crickets
>>> >> chirping). Phoenix just ain't happening as a
>>> serious place where
>>> >> serious people are doing serious things. No one
>>> wants it badly enough
>>> >> here. This paper should be having at least one
>>> article a week on a new
>>> >> startup and the VC firm who funded it.
>>> Helloooo????? is anybody out
>>> >> there...."
>>> >>
>>> >> a better way to phrase this: we need to stop
>>> pretending these
>>> >> whimsical efforts churned out by local
>>> self-employed marketing experts
>>> >> are sufficient. They are not. We should be
>>> asking the hard
>>> >> questions, not playing games.
>>> >>
>>> >> -jmz
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Joshua
>>> Zeidner<jjzeidner@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>> another point, honestly reading through some
>>> of the criticisms on
>>> >>> azcentral and being of the cafe dwelling creed
>>> myself, I'd have to say
>>> >>> that many of those points are accurate. I've
>>> heard lots of
>>> >>> 'entrepreneurs' with big ideas around here who
>>> never get anywhere with
>>> >>> them. Sorry, but a word press template
>>> doesn't make you an
>>> >>> entrepreneur.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> "These are the same people you see at
>>> Starbucks, Boarders or any
>>> >>> other wi-fi hot spot, they are not
>>> entrepreneurs they are attention
>>> >>> (inappropriate term)."
>>> >>>
>>> >>> "Many of the Co-Worker location founders
>>> tout other people to
>>> >>> collaborate with and who can "compensate for
>>> your deficiencies". Do
>>> >>> you really believe someone that you are not
>>> paying as an employee is
>>> >>> going to somehow compensate for your
>>> deficiencies and make your
>>> >>> business better? That kind of help doesn't
>>> come without a price."
>>> >>>
>>> >>> oh so true...
>>> >>>
>>> >>> "You are more likely to get a bunch of
>>> people chatting to you over
>>> >>> your "work" so you wont be concentrating as
>>> you should to focus on
>>> >>> your business. Most of these people started
>>> businesses after being
>>> >>> laid off. They are searching for a new job and
>>> they aren't really
>>> >>> serious about their "businesses" so how do you
>>> expect them to give you
>>> >>> valuable, serious advice. Are these the kind
>>> of people you need to
>>> >>> compensate for your deficiencies? A bunch of
>>> people half-as running
>>> >>> their "business" while searching for a real
>>> job and bothering you with
>>> >>> their expertise that got them laid off in the
>>> first place."
>>> >>>
>>> >>> oh so so true...
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I would be willing to bet the commenter
>>> above is an tried and true
>>> >>> successful entrepreneur. Perhaps the reason
>>> I am so skeptical is
>>> >>> because I know these kind of people so well.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> sorry I really wish I could be more
>>> supportive... but : truth is
>>> >>> the foundation of progress.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> -jmz
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Joshua
>>> Zeidner<jjzeidner@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>>> Alan,
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Wish I had time to respond to all
>>> these points right now, not sure
>>> >>>> you read me the way I would prefer
>>> however. Its not so grave a
>>> >>>> warning, just getting the word out on my
>>> first hand experiences. Im
>>> >>>> just one of many- but hopefully an
>>> impartial observer and someone
>>> >>>> genuinely concerned for AZ.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> all the best, jmz
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Alan
>>> Dayley<alandd@consultpros.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>> Josh,
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> I feel warned. And I don't
>>> understand the reason for such a strong warning.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> There are people in every industry,
>>> government or community who wish
>>> >>>>> to fleece their "community" for their
>>> own profit instead of mutual
>>> >>>>> benefit. The trick is to find the
>>> positive people and ignore the
>>> >>>>> rest. Apply the same filter with
>>> every event, group or blogger in the
>>> >>>>> lists and links I provided. I don't
>>> expect bloggers or techies to be
>>> >>>>> any different, as if being techie
>>> makes one a saint.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Some of those bloggers are purely
>>> commercial or completely neglected,
>>> >>>>> I'm sure. Some of the groups or
>>> events or sites listed are lousy,
>>> >>>>> boring or poor marketing excuses to
>>> sell something. Some are not out
>>> >>>>> to create community but to build a
>>> "kingdom" for their own benefit.
>>> >>>>> They are the duds.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Let's look at a few positives:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> - Read the Gangplank Manifesto on
>>> their home page at
>>> >>>>> http://gangplankhq.com. That looks like
>>> a great articulation of their
>>> >>>>> goals and purpose. Ones I strongly
>>> support!
>>> >>>>> -- Read how the manifesto came to be
>>> on Derek's blog at
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> http://derekneighbors.com/2009/07/collaborative-writing-or-how-the-gangplank-manifesto-was-written/
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> - Gangplank has hosted or is hosting:
>>> >>>>> -- MobiFest - a day long conference on
>>> developing for phones like
>>> >>>>> iPhone or Android
>>> >>>>> -- Gangplank Jr. - a 2-3 hour Saturday
>>> event for kids 5-15 to learn
>>> >>>>> programming concepts
>>> >>>>> -- Wordpress training classes for
>>> minimal cost or no-cost for non-profit orgs
>>> >>>>> -- Laid Off Camp - a day long
>>> conference on job searching and entreprenuership
>>> >>>>> -- Barcamp Pheonix - a day long
>>> conference on software development
>>> >>>>> -- TEDx night - Watch ted.com videos
>>> and discuss them
>>> >>>>> -- OpenPhoenix - a night of open mic
>>> music and entertainment
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> - The last http://desertcodecamp.com/ was held on June 13th and
>>> nearly
>>> >>>>> filled DeVry's Phoenix campus with
>>> developers talking about code or
>>> >>>>> making code. Free lunch of pizza and
>>> sub sandwiches was provided too.
>>> >>>>> Put together by volunteers.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> - If you're into Microsoft based
>>> development tech, the people who
>>> >>>>> maintain the http://azgroups.com site do an annual all-day event at
>>> >>>>> venues like the Orphium Theater and at
>>> no cost to attendees. Fine,
>>> >>>>> it's marketing for MS but it's put on
>>> by volunteers here in the valley
>>> >>>>> and a great way for people to learn
>>> about things that improve their
>>> >>>>> career skills.
>>> >>>>> (
>>> >>>>> http://www.componentart.com/BLOGS/milos/archive/2009/06/02/scott-guthrie-event-2009-phoenix-az.aspx
>>> >>>>> )
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> - The local Ruby On Rails group has
>>> monthly meetings with around 30
>>> >>>>> regularly in attendance.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> - The Java group is also well attended
>>> every month.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> - The third http://podcampaz.com/ is coming up in November, put on
>>> by
>>> >>>>> voluteers at no cost (donation
>>> requested) to attendees. Had about 350
>>> >>>>> people attend last year (if I recall)
>>> for two days of conference.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> - The http://azentrepreneurship.com/ conference will be in
>>> November
>>> >>>>> for the forth year. This one costs
>>> $100+ but should be as well
>>> >>>>> attended as last year with 200+
>>> people. Funded and organized in part
>>> >>>>> by a local venture capital group.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> - The first http://ignitephoenix.com event was held a year ago with
>>> a
>>> >>>>> little over 100 in attendance and has
>>> grown to fill the 600 seat
>>> >>>>> Theather at Tempe Center for the Arts
>>> back in June. The connections
>>> >>>>> made there live well past the event.
>>> >>>>> -- Oh, a city council member and the
>>> mayor of Tempe spoke this last
>>> >>>>> time, though he was a bit silly trying
>>> to be Tempe exclusive. That
>>> >>>>> seems to be at least verbal political
>>> support.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> - The second ABLEConf on FS/OSS is
>>> being planned for October and
>>> >>>>> should be better than last year. (Go
>>> Hans and team!)
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> I'm not going to go on, though I could
>>> point out several purely social
>>> >>>>> events like http://phoenixfridaynights.com/, it's east and west
>>> valley
>>> >>>>> analogs, East Valley Thursday Morning
>>> breakfasts, Tempe Geeks Lunch,
>>> >>>>> South Valley Geek Meet and Eat and
>>> Gangplank's Brown Gag lunch
>>> >>>>> presentations every Wednesday.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Now, having said all of that "giddy
>>> blind optimism," I'd like to
>>> >>>>> understand how the above does not
>>> address the efforts of the past or
>>> >>>>> provide improvement over past efforts.
>>> What are the real needs of the
>>> >>>>> community, if not some of the above?
>>> What would you suggest? How can
>>> >>>>> PLUG be a part of it?
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Alan
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 1:34 PM,
>>> Joshua Zeidner<jjzeidner@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>> Alan,
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> while I appreciate your post,
>>> and anyone who is making a sincere
>>> >>>>>> effort to build community in
>>> Phoenix... be warned. There are some
>>> >>>>>> small groups who periodically
>>> spawn off new 'communities' every month
>>> >>>>>> or so. Look closely and you see
>>> the same few people with reused
>>> >>>>>> marketing recipes. Lots of blog
>>> and not too much community I'm
>>> >>>>>> afraid. Their efforts amount to
>>> some simple branding and putting up a
>>> >>>>>> blog. While these things are not
>>> really particularily offensive to
>>> >>>>>> me, they do somewhat detract from
>>> interest in the real needs of the
>>> >>>>>> community here. Some of these
>>> people are just outright idiotic and
>>> >>>>>> cannot deal with existing
>>> structure and refuse to accept the history
>>> >>>>>> of efforts in the past. They
>>> lack any articulation of their goals and
>>> >>>>>> purpose. Often times they have
>>> trouble organizing even small groups
>>> >>>>>> of 2 or 3. Dont forget we've had
>>> a tech incubator here. Lets not
>>> >>>>>> smack down sincere criticism in
>>> favor of giddy blind optimism,
>>> >>>>>> remember you can't improve without
>>> criticism. I would take these
>>> >>>>>> people much more seriously if they
>>> addressed the efforts of the past
>>> >>>>>> and perhaps suggested how they are
>>> going to improve on them, or
>>> >>>>>> perhaps indicate what has changed
>>> that will make them a success.
>>> >>>>>> Maybe seeking real political
>>> support would gain some legitimacy.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> on the positive side, I think
>>> Phoenix will attract a lot of
>>> >>>>>> technology business due to its
>>> relative low cost and no doubt you will
>>> >>>>>> start to see community
>>> infrastructure grow. We are seeing some real
>>> >>>>>> urban development happening in Phx
>>> metro which has me very excited. I
>>> >>>>>> think when the macroeconomic
>>> problems are sorted out we will see
>>> >>>>>> downtown Phx bloom. Im hoping
>>> that the average Arizonan gets involved
>>> >>>>>> in the political process and make
>>> sure that the corruption stays out
>>> >>>>>> of city and state politics.
>>> Coming from NY, Im recognizing a lot of
>>> >>>>>> positive development trends in Phx
>>> metro.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> -jmz
>>> >>>>>
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