You would think so, but it's more complicated. We're not getting the top
performers. Those are being snapped up by governments and companies that
directly interface with the educational institutions. Also, take
Argentina, for example. Back in early 2000's (when i was working with
george, small world), the company we worked for opened up outsourcing in
Argentina and sent us down there to train them. Driving through Buenos
Aires we saw Sun and Oracle also opening up outsourcing locations. All 3
companies wanted 10k people. Though the high performers, those with
education and experience, were on par with US staff, that totalled less
than 2500 people in Argentina at the time (numbers from
Argentinan government should stlil be available for the curious). After a
couple years, we had taken some of the educated but not experienced and
given them experience, and this expanded the pool, but not the 30k wanted
by just the 3 companies. Also, those who could stopped applying for the
1/4 pay jobs (1/6 at the time) and applied for the better pay jobs, as
you'd expect. Because if you're worth it, companies will pay for it.
There's this rubber-band effect when a labor market is opened where it
balances itself against cost very quickly, and then you end up with
corruption in the system. For example, many of the Indian outsource
companies I worked with would send the educated, not experienced, people
over here at low pay to gain experience, then once they had the experience
they went back home and took a leadership or teaching role and we lost out
on the gains of providing the training. We didn't look down on this. Who
wouldn't want to be able to live a great life with their family where they
grew up at the cost of 4-5 years living abroad? But we had to factor it
in. Some did stay, but that wasn't the norm. And often we got to work
with them remotely, which was great.
By corruption in the system, I mean that the goals of outsourcing for the
company were being gamed in ways we weren't anticipating (not political
corruption, but more like fragmenting the hard drive. it just gets less
efficient over time). Although there was also corruption in the political
way once the people with that ability saw it as an opportunity. This is
not unique, but it's the norm with most outsourcing. As you would expect,
but at the time it was quite the surprise. These days, doing research on
the country you're considering outsourcing to is a must.
At this point, we've learned a lot about the globalization of labor and
what expectations to have. The HR people doing this are rarely dumb. They
know that if they're offering 44k/year, they're going to get educated, but
not experienced. Or educated and experienced, but unable to perform for
some reason. Or desperate. And I think this last one is part of what
makes our consciences twitch.
Anyway, I haven't given this enough thought to be coherent, but wanted to
get a couple of my thoughts out there.
On Fri, Jul 7, 2023 at 2:39 PM trent shipley via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
> :So you're saying the Indians and Argientinans obviously deserved the job
> more than you since they would do the same work for less money? Also, why
> would an American be better at the job than someone from anywhere else? Or
> are you saying you are better than most of your peers in general, you're
> part of the 20% of your profession who generate 80% of the value. I mean
> the competition to get into a third-world government university is fierce,
> especially if it's ranked. The selectivity of admission rates match MIT
> and Stanford, theoretically Indian and Chinese computer scientists as a
> population should outperform their European, and even more their American
> competition.
>
> On Fri, Jul 7, 2023 at 2:29 PM George Toft via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>> The only shortage that exists is technical people with Bachelors Degrees
>> willing to work for minimum wage.
>>
>> Case in point. My employer is required to post HR crap in the public
>> spaces (break rooms). One of the posts showed Tata Consultancy was
>> providing a DBA for $66K/year. Tata takes 1/3 (typical), so the
>> resource is getting $44K/year ($22/hr). My kids make more than that
>> with a High School education. This is what the young people are
>> competing against, so why go into this field?
>>
>> Another case in point. My job got outsourced to Argentina and the
>> resources were getting $6/hr. I later heard it got raised to $10/hr.
>> That was still 1/4 of what I was making. Even if the Argentinians
>> screwed up and had to rework a task, the company still saved 50% over
>> hiring an American on that task, and they are elated at the cost savings.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> George Toft
>>
>> On 6/7/2023 3:29 PM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>> > On 2023-06-07 13:59, James Mcphee via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>> >> Generally, if I hear it from cable news, there's a good chance it's
>> >> just someone drumming up support for something. In this case, we'll
>> >> probably hear about some kind of H1B system to make sure the new fabs
>> >> get all the people they need, etc. Same deal as when I was working at
>> >> a company that got bought by Dell, and they failed to retain most of
>> >> the new employees because they didn't have a structure that worked
>> >> with professionals. Suddenly you saw Michael Dell doing an interview
>> >> on CNBC about the need to extend H1B 'cause they aren't getting enough
>> >> workers. At the very least, there's plenty of incentive to drive down
>> >> labor costs. And with the halts for new housing going out, there is a
>> >> LOT of incentive to manipulate the market.
>> >>
>> >> Am I being paranoid? I probably need to touch more grass.
>> >
>> > Are you getting too paranoid? Maybe not. I quit following the news
>> > because I think most are fearmongering and not talking and working on
>> > the real problems.
>> >
>> > I personally do not like the H1B visas because I do not think they are
>> > necessary. If there is really a shortage of tech workers then why is
>> > there not a few major tech universities? Why does Gates exploit the
>> > H1B and not create a really great tech university? And why do the
>> > politicians allow all of this?
>> >
>> > We have all we need right here in our 50 states, so why do we not do
>> > things that benefit ourselves and possibly others?
>> >
>> > These people like Michael Dell, Bill Gates, etc have forgotten where
>> > they came from.
>> >
>> > QUESTION?
>> >
>> > I understand TSMC produces the most chips in the world, and is located
>> > in Taiwan . Where did they get that technology and who paid for that
>> > technology?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 1:15 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss
>> >> <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Don't believe everything you read on the internet. I've read that
>> >>> Abraham Lincoln blames Donald Trump for giving the gun to John
>> >>> Wilkes Booth.
>> >>>
>> >>> On 6/6/23 17:45, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>> >>>> Chip maker TSMC is moving to chandler and I have read they are a
>> >>>> sweatshop....
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------
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>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> James McPhee
>> >> jmcphe@gmail.com
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------
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--
James McPhee
jmcphe@gmail.com
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