Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 194, Issue 2

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Author: Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss
Date:  
To: Main PLUG discussion list
CC: techlists, Mike Bushroe
Subject: Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 194, Issue 2

Just spent a minute or so researching the Fabian Society and found it to
be something that is very wrong.

I just want peace and freedom.

Life could be so simple.


On 2021-08-03 16:51, greg zegan via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> when I was a kid they scared everyone with global cooling.
> polar ice caps flipping and such.
>
> This about controlling you and the way you think.
> Just found out about the Fabian Society.
> look em up.
> Central planning has been a dream since the days of Joseph in Egypt in
> the Bible.
>
> Collective Oligarchy is the goal.
> you get nothing and like it while the oligarchs get everything serf.
>
> On Tuesday, August 3, 2021, 06:14:29 PM EDT, Mike Bushroe via
> PLUG-discuss <> wrote:
>
> I did not realize that there were still people who claimed to believe
> that there is no global warming. Makes me wonder if there might be
> someone in the group that believe that the Earth is flat. If you want
> to get more answers about global warming, and also see the reasoning
> behind the evidence, you might want to look at <climate.nasa.gov [2]>,
>
>
>> Global warming is junk science!
>
> You are vastly in the minority with that opinion, and that's assuming
> that you have the crednetials to make that determination on your own.
> Greater than 97% of all published articles on Climate change agree
> that the Climate is getting warmer, that is is 95% likely to be due to
> human caused sources, and will continue to get worse unless humans
> change hoew they effect the climate.
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_consensus_on_climate_change#:~:text=Nearly%20all%20actively%20publishing%20climate,consensus%20to%20be%20at%20100%25.>
>
>
>> Why is the summer so cool this year?
>
> Your facts are uncoordinated. This summer is NOT cool, nor was last
> summer. According to US News and World Report
> <https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/arizona/articles/2021-07-02/phoenixs-dry-heat-also-sets-record-for-hottest-june-ever>
>
>
> The year June set a new record as the hottest June ever, so I am not
> sure where your comment about this being an unusually mild summer
> comes from.
>
> Reported else where July 2020 was the hottest month ever until August
> ended ad replaced it as the hottest month ever in Phoenix, and the
> record for most days of 100 or higher was also broken in 2020
> <azcentral>
>
> Also, remember to keep climate separate from weather in your mind.
> That means that the record highs for this year and last year don't
> mean that global warming is occurring, only that weather extremes may
> be the cause. But when you have year after year of setting new
> all-time-records you have climate change.
>
>> Weather trends. The science tells us there are weather trends.
>
> “Fortunately, consistent temperature estimates made by
> paleoclimatologists (scientists who study Earth’s past climate using
> environmental clues like ice cores and tree rings) provide scientists
> with context for understanding today’s observed warming of Earth’s
> climate, which has no historic parallel. “
> <https://climate.nasa.gov/blog/3071/the-raw-truth-on-global-temperature-records/>
>
>
> Weather trends exist, but are overridden by climate. Climate trends in
> and out of Ice Ages, but today we are already warming faster than any
> post ice age measured, faster than _any_ known warming cycle. That is
> not a trend, and it is not an in-and-out of ice age cycle. We are
> entering whole new climate patterns.
>
>> There was a mini ice age before there where cars.
>
> See above. The climate is changing faster now than it did for the mini
> ice age.
>
>> The ice caps are not melting
>
> Your facts are uncoordinated. The north polar ice cap (arctic ice cap)
> is shrinking at roughly 10% per decade, the rate has been increasing
> except for the 7 years, but current estimates are that this year’s
> summer minimum will match the previous record low.
> <https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/arctic-sea-ice>
>
>> and the oceans rising.
>
> The sea levels have been climbing for decades already. It is not just
> predicitions but also past measurements. So far the rate of rise in
> sea levels is only in milimeter per year, but building over time that
> is centimeters per decade and meters per century. The rate of rise is
> also increasing. Currently most of the melting is floating ice (arctic
> and antartic ice shelves) but as land based ice melts (Greenland and
> Antartic glaciers) the rate will be much
> faster.<https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/climate-change-global-sea-level>
>
>
>> LA is still here.
>
> The sea level rise since 1900 has only 20 centimeters, so you are
> correct, LA is still there. But for east coasters even 20 cm on top of
> storm surge does make a difference, and it will mean more days each
> year that Venice streets are under water.
>
>> For 30 years you have been telling us
>
> I believe 30 years of warnings prior to now is possible.
>
>> in 12 years
>
> I disbelieve that anyone said 12 years unless they were either very
> mistaken or giving out disinformation to make the global warming
> proponents seem irrational. Please cite some sources for this claim.
>
>> the earth is going to burn up.
>
> I also disbelieve anyone claimed the Earth would "Burn Up". Reach
> temperatures that would make some areas that are inhabited now become
> unlivable and areas that currently grow food become to drought ridden
> to produce food I concurr with. Actually burning up sounds like
> another case of trying to make someone look irrational.
>
>> Just because a car heats up mean nothing more that do not leave
> anything in your car that would be adversely effected by the summer
> sun and the increased interior temperature.
>
> I think they were only using it as a common, well known example of how
> a given setup such as glass, closed car interior, sun light leads
> unavoidably to higher temperatures, just like increased carbon dioxide
> in the atmosphere, atmosphere stuck to planet, planet gets warmer.
>
>> Why does the sun not heat up your car during the winder? Is it global
> cooling?
>
> I don't know what kind of car you drive, but parking mine in sun light
> _always_ makes it get warmer inside. The only difference is that in
> the winter time that is not a bad thing.
>
>> We know too little about the weather to determine what is happening.
> That is what the scientists say.
>
> Actually we know a great deal about weather, otherwise we could not
> make any forecasts at all. Unfortunately one of those things that we
> know about it is that it is sensitive to the 'butterfly effect' which
> makes it chaotic and day-to-day weather hard to forecast. But climate
> is weather averaged over time or area, and it is very easy to average
> all the weather for a given year to see how the climate is changing
> <https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/weather_climate.html>
>
>> What we do know is there is weather cycles and trends.
>
> "Fortunately, consistent temperature estimates made by
> paleoclimatologists (scientists who study Earth’s past climate using
> environmental clues like ice cores and tree rings) provide scientists
> with context for understanding today’s observed warming of Earth’s
> climate, which has no historic parallel."
>
> <https://climate.nasa.gov/blog/3071/the-raw-truth-on-global-temperature-records/>
>
>
>> An what about all those hacked emails years ago where the weather
>
> scientists where encouraging publishing false data.
>
> "The Climatic Research Unit email controversy (also known as
> "Climategate")[2][3] began in November 2009 with the hacking of a
> server at the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) at the University of East
> Anglia (UEA) by an external attacker,[4][5] copying thousands of
> emails and computer files (the Climatic Research Unit documents) to
> various internet locations several weeks before the Copenhagen Summit
> on climate change."
>
> "FactCheck.org confirmed that climate change deniers misrepresented
> the contents of the emails."
>
> " Because of the timing, scientists, policy makers and public
> relations experts said that the release of emails was a smear campaign
> intended to undermine the climate conference."
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climatic_Research_Unit_email_controversy>
>
>
> If you are still referring to this as significant, it means that
> either you have not done anything to check your facts from over a
> decade ago, or that you support the theft of private documents,
> presenting out of context to create a smear campaign just before a
> major, international conference on setting global policies on climate
> change mitigation so that you can discredit the scientist who support
> global warming without needing to present _any_ facts to disprove it.
>
> I find it interesting to note that out of 160Mbytes of stolen emails,
> documents, and commented climate modeling code the best that they
> could come up with two or three things which taken out of context make
> them seem like something bad was going on. Of course, if they had
> really been falsifying data and conspiring to lock out scientists who
> did not support global warming, there would have been vastly more
> comments of a much clearer, more detailed nature proving the
> 'conspiracy'. Since the two or three little blrubs were all they could
> find is almost proof itself that there was nothing going on.
>
>> What is it you wish to achieve? What so you want us to do?
>
> Try to save the World?
>
> Mike Bushroe
>
> On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 12:00 PM
> <> wrote:
>
>> Send PLUG-discuss mailing list submissions to
>>
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of PLUG-discuss digest..."
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re:
>>
>>
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
>> (Eric Oyen)
>> 2. Re:
>>
>>
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
>> (Steve Litt)
>> 3. Re:
>>
>>
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
>> (Matthew Crews)
>> 4. Re:
>>
>>
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
>> ()
>> 5. Re:
>>
>>
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
>> ()
>> 6. Re:
>>
>>
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
>> (Matthew Crews)
>> 7. Re:
>>
>>
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
>> (Matthew Gibson)
>> 8. Re:
>>
>>
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
>> (Steve Litt)
>> 9. Re:
>>
>>
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
>> (Steve Litt)
>> 10. Re:
>>
>>
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
>> (Matthew Gibson)
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Eric Oyen <>
>> To: Main PLUG discussion list <>
>> Cc:
>> Bcc:
>> Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2021 14:17:30 -0700
>> Subject: Re:
>>
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
>> I was going to go into a long involved essay on this citing many
>> facts and figures, but I won’t. You cited these numbers, now show
>> your work with sources.
>>
>> Some of your figures don’t account for changes in population
>> versus use by sector or total energy = total used + total wasted. It
>> also doesn’t explain how China managed to use over 50% of the
>> planetary supply of coal in 2020 (more than double that of the US
>> for the same period) And that is just coal. (See the fortune article
>> here:
>>
> https://fortune.com/2021/03/29/china-coal-energy-electricity-xi-jinping-2020-ember/)
>> and it also doesn’t properly explain energy efficiency taking into
>> account usage by sector (see
>>
> https://www.indy100.com/news/the-world-s-most-energy-efficient-countries-7334291
>> ). It also doesn’t account for changes in technology in the energy
>> sector, in specific changes in technology in the transportation
>> sector since 1965 (see
>> https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/09/20190930-sivak.html) or
>> changes in price per gallon of various fossil fuels since 1965 (see
>> Cost of gas the year you were born | The State [1]).
>>
>> Now, as for your other points, please show me hard data (in
>> accessible format for the blind) over the last 30 years showing
>> actual facts, verified data that isn’t cherry picked, padded or
>> otherwise pulled out of thin air) on those points. Only then can we
>> have a reasonable discussion. So far, you haven’t really shown
>> much on those other points.
>>
>> SO, please, show your data and show your source that supports it.
>> Talking points (regardless of political leaning) are just not
>> acceptable.
>>
>> -Eric
>> From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Library Dept.
>>
>> On Jul 28, 2021, at 1:13 AM, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss
>> <> wrote:
>>
>> Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss said on Tue, 27 Jul 2021 22:53:09 -0700
>>
>> So, guys, nice little debate we all got snagged into here because of
>> some state regulations that would prevent nearly 60 million people
>> from owning technologies that would make their lives more
>> convenient.
>> Regulations put in place by politicians who know nothing of real
>> science and are trying to kiss up to china. Now, where does that
>> leave
>> us?
>>
>> It leaves us with 60 million people who can't game quite as hard.
>> Boo
>> hoo hoo.
>>
>> What's this fascination with China that you all have? China uses the
>> energy equivalent of 27,018 million barrels of oil for 1394 million
>> people, equalling 19.4 barrels per person. The US uses the
>> equivalent of
>> 18,684 million barrels and has 328 million people, equaling 56.9
>> barrels per person.
>>
>> So here's the question: If some country using almost triple the
>> energy
>> per person than your country says *you* are the problem and should
>> cut,
>> and they won't do squat until you cut, what would you say to them?
>>
>> You ask where it leaves us. Hey, if you're 60 years old, it leaves
>> you
>> having lived a pretty fun life. If you're 20 years old, it leaves
>> you
>> with a very hard (and probably considerably foreshortened) second
>> half
>> of your life. If you were just born today, by the time you graduate
>> college, the world will be rife with climate refugees and water
>> wars,
>> and by the time you're 50, if you last that long, the population
>> decline will be brutal and pretty universal except for the very
>> rich.
>> All because everybody in 2021 said the other guy should cut his
>> emissions first.
>>
>> One more thing: Some friends of mine ran the numbers and according
>> to
>> them the California computer energy standards aren't as strict as
>> those
>> of the EU.
>>
>> I feel not a bit of sorrow for the 60 million potential gamers who
>> play
>> at a slight disadvantage, if they play at all. I feel sorry for
>> their
>> grandchildren.
>>
>> SteveT
>>
>> Steve Litt
>> Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the
>> Successful
>> Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
>> ---------------------------------------------------
>> PLUG-discuss mailing list -
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Steve Litt <>
> To:
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 02:36:50 -0400
> Subject: Re:
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
> The time to ask for sources was 4 days ago, when I still had the
> websites on my browser.
>
> So I'll just say this: Get inside a car, in the summer sunlight, whose
> windows and doors have been closed for a couple hours. It's hot.
> Really
> hot. The light from the sun passed through the glass and heated the
> seats and interior, heating them up. The heated surfaces emit a much
> longer wavelength infrared, which is absorbed by the glass instead of
> letting the longer infrared through. So a significant fraction of the
> energy from the sun gets trapped in the car, heating it considerably.
> We all learned that in high school physics. Here's a reference:
>
> https://www.greenerchoices.org/how-does-a-greenhouse-work/
>
> So the remaining question is, does C02 act like glass? Here are some
> cites that say it does:
>
> https://earthathome.org/quick-faqs/why-is-carbon-dioxide-called-a-greenhouse-gas/
>
> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-carbon-dioxide-is-greenhouse-gas/
>
> Listen, I understand your need to look at science through the lens of
> an agenda. The "I got mine, screw everyone else" attitude is quite
> popular these days, causing people to grasp at straws when science
> disagrees with their pet philosophy. But facts are facts, the more C02
> we spew, the hotter Earth gets. And when it gets hot enough, it
> releases the methane gas in the ocean:
>
> https://worldoceanreview.com/en/wor-1/energy/methane-hydrates/
>
> And with the released methane, all of a sudden it gets *a
> lot* hotter. This has happened in some major extinction events:
>
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1871174X16300488
>
> Volcanos were the usual cause. But not this time.
>
> If you don't believe my cites, find some of your own that aren't
> agenda
> driven.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the
> Successful
> Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
>
> Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss said on Sun, 1 Aug 2021 14:17:30 -0700
>
>> I was going to go into a long involved essay on this citing many
> facts
>> and figures, but I won’t. You cited these numbers, now show your
> work
>> with sources.
>>
>> Some of your figures don’t account for changes in population versus
>> use by sector or total energy = total used + total wasted. It also
>> doesn’t explain how China managed to use over 50% of the planetary
>> supply of coal in 2020 (more than double that of the US for the same
>> period) And that is just coal. (See the fortune article here:
>> https://fortune.com/2021/03/29/china-coal-energy-electricity-xi-jinping-2020-ember/)
>> and it also doesn’t properly explain energy efficiency taking into
>> account usage by sector (see
>> https://www.indy100.com/news/the-world-s-most-energy-efficient-countries-7334291
>> ). It also doesn’t account for changes in technology in the energy
>> sector, in specific changes in technology in the transportation
> sector
>> since 1965 (see
>> https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/09/20190930-sivak.html) or
>> changes in price per gallon of various fossil fuels since 1965 (see
>> Cost of gas the year you were born | The State
>> <https://www.thestate.com/news/databases/article68603317.html>).
>>
>> Now, as for your other points, please show me hard data (in
> accessible
>> format for the blind) over the last 30 years showing actual facts,
>> verified data that isn’t cherry picked, padded or otherwise pulled
> out
>> of thin air) on those points. Only then can we have a reasonable
>> discussion. So far, you haven’t really shown much on those other
>> points.
>>
>> SO, please, show your data and show your source that supports it.
>> Talking points (regardless of political leaning) are just not
>> acceptable.
>>
>> -Eric
>> From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Library Dept.
>>
>>
>>> On Jul 28, 2021, at 1:13 AM, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss
>>> <> wrote:
>>>
>>> Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss said on Tue, 27 Jul 2021 22:53:09 -0700
>>>
>>>> So, guys, nice little debate we all got snagged into here because
> of
>>>> some state regulations that would prevent nearly 60 million people
>>>> from owning technologies that would make their lives more
>>>> convenient. Regulations put in place by politicians who know
>>>> nothing of real science and are trying to kiss up to china. Now,
>>>> where does that leave us?
>>>
>>> It leaves us with 60 million people who can't game quite as hard.
> Boo
>>> hoo hoo.
>>>
>>> What's this fascination with China that you all have? China uses
> the
>>> energy equivalent of 27,018 million barrels of oil for 1394 million
>>> people, equalling 19.4 barrels per person. The US uses the
>>> equivalent of 18,684 million barrels and has 328 million people,
>>> equaling 56.9 barrels per person.
>>>
>>> So here's the question: If some country using almost triple the
>>> energy per person than your country says *you* are the problem and
>>> should cut, and they won't do squat until you cut, what would you
>>> say to them?
>>>
>>> You ask where it leaves us. Hey, if you're 60 years old, it leaves
>>> you having lived a pretty fun life. If you're 20 years old, it
>>> leaves you with a very hard (and probably considerably
>>> foreshortened) second half of your life. If you were just born
>>> today, by the time you graduate college, the world will be rife
> with
>>> climate refugees and water wars, and by the time you're 50, if you
>>> last that long, the population decline will be brutal and pretty
>>> universal except for the very rich. All because everybody in 2021
>>> said the other guy should cut his emissions first.
>>>
>>> One more thing: Some friends of mine ran the numbers and according
> to
>>> them the California computer energy standards aren't as strict as
>>> those of the EU.
>>>
>>> I feel not a bit of sorrow for the 60 million potential gamers who
>>> play at a slight disadvantage, if they play at all. I feel sorry
> for
>>> their grandchildren.
>>>
>>> SteveT
>>>
>>> Steve Litt
>>> Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the
>>> Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
>>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list -
>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Matthew Crews <>
> To:
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 05:41:54 -0700
> Subject: Re:
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
> All this bickering is missing the overall point:
>
> The era of mainstream desktop PCs draining huge amounts of electricity
> is over. The expectation is that we now use power efficient PCs,
> whether
> we like it or not.
>
> If only the graphics card vendors would make usable high end graphics
> cards that don't require 550W all by itself, and 850W power supplies
> for
> the whole system.
>
> https://www.gamepressure.com/newsroom/geforce-rtx-3090-will-require-850w-power-supply-and-12-pin-plug/zb22f1
>
> Power efficient electronics have been the norm for awhile, and power
> efficiency is a huge deal in laptop PCs and servers (and has been for
> a
> VERY long time). Its only just now caught up to the desktop PC market.
>
> -Matt
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From:
> To: Main PLUG discussion list <>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2021 07:52:17 -0700
> Subject: Re:
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
>
> Global warming is junk science! Why is the summer so cool this year?
>
> Weather trends. The science tells us there are weather trends. There
>
> was a mini ice age before there where cars. The ice caps are not
> melting and the oceans rising. LA is still here. For 30 years you
> have
> been telling us in 12 years the earth is going to burn up.
>
> Just because a car heats up mean nothing more that do not leave
> anything
> in your car that would be adversely effected by the summer sun and the
>
> increased interior temperature.
>
> Why does the sun not heat up your car during the winder? Is it global
>
> cooling?
>
> We know too little about the weather to determine what is happening.
> That is what the scientists say.
>
> What we do know is there is weather cycles and trends.
>
> An what about all those hacked emails years ago where the weather
> scientists where encouraging publishing false data.
>
> What is it you wish to achieve? What so you want us to do?
>
> On 2021-08-01 23:36, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>> The time to ask for sources was 4 days ago, when I still had the
>> websites on my browser.
>>
>> So I'll just say this: Get inside a car, in the summer sunlight,
> whose
>> windows and doors have been closed for a couple hours. It's hot.
> Really
>> hot. The light from the sun passed through the glass and heated the
>> seats and interior, heating them up. The heated surfaces emit a much
>> longer wavelength infrared, which is absorbed by the glass instead
> of
>> letting the longer infrared through. So a significant fraction of
> the
>> energy from the sun gets trapped in the car, heating it
> considerably.
>> We all learned that in high school physics. Here's a reference:
>>
>> https://www.greenerchoices.org/how-does-a-greenhouse-work/
>>
>> So the remaining question is, does C02 act like glass? Here are some
>> cites that say it does:
>>
>>
> https://earthathome.org/quick-faqs/why-is-carbon-dioxide-called-a-greenhouse-gas/
>>
>>
> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-carbon-dioxide-is-greenhouse-gas/
>>
>> Listen, I understand your need to look at science through the lens
> of
>> an agenda. The "I got mine, screw everyone else" attitude is quite
>> popular these days, causing people to grasp at straws when science
>> disagrees with their pet philosophy. But facts are facts, the more
> C02
>> we spew, the hotter Earth gets. And when it gets hot enough, it
>> releases the methane gas in the ocean:
>>
>> https://worldoceanreview.com/en/wor-1/energy/methane-hydrates/
>>
>> And with the released methane, all of a sudden it gets *a
>> lot* hotter. This has happened in some major extinction events:
>>
>>
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1871174X16300488
>>
>> Volcanos were the usual cause. But not this time.
>>
>> If you don't believe my cites, find some of your own that aren't
> agenda
>> driven.
>>
>> SteveT
>>
>> Steve Litt
>> Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the
> Successful
>> Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
>>
>> Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss said on Sun, 1 Aug 2021 14:17:30 -0700
>>
>>> I was going to go into a long involved essay on this citing many
> facts
>>> and figures, but I won’t. You cited these numbers, now show your
> work
>>> with sources.
>>>
>>> Some of your figures don’t account for changes in population
> versus
>>> use by sector or total energy = total used + total wasted. It also
>>> doesn’t explain how China managed to use over 50% of the
> planetary
>>> supply of coal in 2020 (more than double that of the US for the
> same
>>> period) And that is just coal. (See the fortune article here:
>>>
> https://fortune.com/2021/03/29/china-coal-energy-electricity-xi-jinping-2020-ember/)
>>> and it also doesn’t properly explain energy efficiency taking
> into
>>> account usage by sector (see
>>>
> https://www.indy100.com/news/the-world-s-most-energy-efficient-countries-7334291
>>> ). It also doesn’t account for changes in technology in the
> energy
>>> sector, in specific changes in technology in the transportation
> sector
>>> since 1965 (see
>>> https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/09/20190930-sivak.html) or
>>> changes in price per gallon of various fossil fuels since 1965 (see
>>> Cost of gas the year you were born | The State
>>> <https://www.thestate.com/news/databases/article68603317.html>).
>>>
>>> Now, as for your other points, please show me hard data (in
> accessible
>>> format for the blind) over the last 30 years showing actual facts,
>>> verified data that isn’t cherry picked, padded or otherwise
> pulled out
>>> of thin air) on those points. Only then can we have a reasonable
>>> discussion. So far, you haven’t really shown much on those other
>>> points.
>>>
>>> SO, please, show your data and show your source that supports it.
>>> Talking points (regardless of political leaning) are just not
>>> acceptable.
>>>
>>> -Eric
>>> From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Library Dept.
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Jul 28, 2021, at 1:13 AM, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss
>>>> <> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss said on Tue, 27 Jul 2021 22:53:09 -0700
>>>>
>>>>> So, guys, nice little debate we all got snagged into here because
> of
>>>>> some state regulations that would prevent nearly 60 million
> people
>>>>> from owning technologies that would make their lives more
>>>>> convenient. Regulations put in place by politicians who know
>>>>> nothing of real science and are trying to kiss up to china. Now,
>>>>> where does that leave us?
>>>>
>>>> It leaves us with 60 million people who can't game quite as hard.
> Boo
>>>> hoo hoo.
>>>>
>>>> What's this fascination with China that you all have? China uses
> the
>>>> energy equivalent of 27,018 million barrels of oil for 1394
> million
>>>> people, equalling 19.4 barrels per person. The US uses the
>>>> equivalent of 18,684 million barrels and has 328 million people,
>>>> equaling 56.9 barrels per person.
>>>>
>>>> So here's the question: If some country using almost triple the
>>>> energy per person than your country says *you* are the problem and
>>>> should cut, and they won't do squat until you cut, what would you
>>>> say to them?
>>>>
>>>> You ask where it leaves us. Hey, if you're 60 years old, it leaves
>>>> you having lived a pretty fun life. If you're 20 years old, it
>>>> leaves you with a very hard (and probably considerably
>>>> foreshortened) second half of your life. If you were just born
>>>> today, by the time you graduate college, the world will be rife
> with
>>>> climate refugees and water wars, and by the time you're 50, if you
>>>> last that long, the population decline will be brutal and pretty
>>>> universal except for the very rich. All because everybody in 2021
>>>> said the other guy should cut his emissions first.
>>>>
>>>> One more thing: Some friends of mine ran the numbers and according
> to
>>>> them the California computer energy standards aren't as strict as
>>>> those of the EU.
>>>>
>>>> I feel not a bit of sorrow for the 60 million potential gamers who
>>>> play at a slight disadvantage, if they play at all. I feel sorry
> for
>>>> their grandchildren.
>>>>
>>>> SteveT
>>>>
>>>> Steve Litt
>>>> Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the
>>>> Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list -
>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------
>> PLUG-discuss mailing list -
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>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From:
> To: Main PLUG discussion list <>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2021 09:19:31 -0700
> Subject: Re:
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
>
> I think we are missing the point.
>
> This is America!! We have lost our way.
>
> Government was instituted to protect us at the Federal level and
> protect
> us, provide water, sewer, roads, and schools and no more at the local
> level. At the state level the government is supposed to protect us
> from
> runaway federal government.
>
> As for cars that use too much fuel and computers that use too may
> watts,
> let the market place decide not the government.
>
> We have a problem in California where they do not clean the forest
> floor
> of dead fuel and then they wonder why there are so many wild fires.
>
> California is also guilty of not maintaining it's power grid so now
> they
> have rolling blackouts.
>
> As a side note California also has the most homeless of any place on
> earth. I read the richest place on earth, silicon valley, has
> designer
> trash cans and human excrement on the sidewalks and streets.
>
> We have lost our way. We need Government to get out of the way and
> let
> the FREE market decide what Americans want to consume and let private
> business provide those goods and services.
>
> As a side note, did you know that America is producing less pollution
> that it has in the past?
>
> By the way CO2 is natural. Plants were CREATED to take CO2 and turn
> it
> into oxygen.
>
> From the Internet :
>
> "Plants are autotrophs, which means they produce their own food. They
> use the process of photosynthesis to transform water, sunlight, and
> carbon dioxide into oxygen, and simple sugars that the plant uses as
> fuel.".
>
> I think my neighborhood is doing it's part. We have an HOA that
> requires each home have a mix of plants per the CC&Rs. All of this is
>
> artificial. We pipe water in to the houses and some of the water
> finds
> it's way into our drip irrigation.
>
> On the other hand this leads some to hire gardeners. These gardeners
> drive big gas burning trucks and pull trainers full of refuge and
> power
> tools - most of which use gas. If I believed in global warming, which
> I
> do not, I would be concerned.
>
> I could start a blog on global warming.
>
> Follow the money. Look at Al Gore who is making money off of global
> warning and stands to make a ton.
>
> If Al Gore was really concerned wouldn't he be concerned about his
> electric and gas foot print. No he is an elitist that does not care.
>
> He has a huge home with huge upkeep. If you want to lead you much
> lead
> by example. Al Gore has proven to be a man who wants to make money
> off
> of our sufferings.
>
> We have been duped.
>
> On 2021-08-02 05:41, Matthew Crews via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>> All this bickering is missing the overall point:
>>
>> The era of mainstream desktop PCs draining huge amounts of
> electricity
>> is over. The expectation is that we now use power efficient PCs,
>> whether
>> we like it or not.
>>
>> If only the graphics card vendors would make usable high end
> graphics
>> cards that don't require 550W all by itself, and 850W power supplies
>
>> for
>> the whole system.
>>
>>
> https://www.gamepressure.com/newsroom/geforce-rtx-3090-will-require-850w-power-supply-and-12-pin-plug/zb22f1
>>
>> Power efficient electronics have been the norm for awhile, and power
>> efficiency is a huge deal in laptop PCs and servers (and has been
> for a
>> VERY long time). Its only just now caught up to the desktop PC
> market.
>>
>> -Matt
>> ---------------------------------------------------
>> PLUG-discuss mailing list -
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Matthew Crews <>
> To: , Main PLUG discussion list
> <>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 09:41:57 -0700
> Subject: Re:
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
> On 8/2/21 9:19 AM, wrote:
>>
>> I think we are missing the point.
>>
>> This is America!! We have lost our way.
>
> Except... this is a global issue, and not just an American issue.
>
> Looking at it through the lens of America first, and blinding yourself
> to the global ramifications, is super short sighted.
>
> As a member of a Linux mailing list, I would hope that we are
> remembering to look up once in awhile and remember our global
> neighbors.
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Matthew Gibson <>
> To: Main PLUG discussion list <>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 10:02:13 -0700
> Subject: Re:
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
> So let's see our global neighbors take up more of the slack in cutting
> their carbon emmissions, while America continues to invest in
> technology that will benefit the globe and do so at market rates.
> Instead of by royal dictate that lines the pockets of corrupt
> government members.
>
> There's a reason people are pouring over the southern border and
> waiting in droves to properly immigrate here. Because of the freedom
> and opportunity that can be found here. The freedom and opportunity
> some members of our citizenry are so quick to sacrifice to a farce of
> a government promise of safety or security.
>
> On Mon, Aug 2, 2021, 9:42 AM Matthew Crews via PLUG-discuss
> <> wrote:
>
>> On 8/2/21 9:19 AM, wrote:
>>>
>>> I think we are missing the point.
>>>
>>> This is America!! We have lost our way.
>>
>> Except... this is a global issue, and not just an American issue.
>>
>> Looking at it through the lens of America first, and blinding
>> yourself
>> to the global ramifications, is super short sighted.
>>
>> As a member of a Linux mailing list, I would hope that we are
>> remembering to look up once in awhile and remember our global
>> neighbors.
>> ---------------------------------------------------
>> PLUG-discuss mailing list -
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Steve Litt <>
> To:
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 14:46:03 -0400
> Subject: Re:
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
> Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss said on Mon, 02 Aug 2021 09:19:31 -0700
>
>> I could start a blog on global warming.
>>
>> Follow the money.
>
> Straight to the oil companies.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the
> Successful
> Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Steve Litt <>
> To:
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 14:49:26 -0400
> Subject: Re:
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
> Matthew Gibson via PLUG-discuss said on Mon, 2 Aug 2021 10:02:13 -0700
>
>> There's a reason people are pouring over the southern border and
>> waiting in droves to properly immigrate here. Because of the freedom
>> and opportunity that can be found here.
>
> And if you have your way, in 50 years Americans will be pouring over
> the Canadian border just to feel a cool breeze every few weeks.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the
> Successful
> Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Matthew Gibson <>
> To: Main PLUG discussion list <>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 11:56:48 -0700
> Subject: Re:
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
> And if you have your way we will be looking a lot like Venezuela or
> Cuba.
>
> Now, aside from attempting to force your will upon me and society,
> what can you personally do to lower your carbon footprint?
>
> On Mon, Aug 2, 2021, 11:49 AM Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss
> <> wrote:
>
>> Matthew Gibson via PLUG-discuss said on Mon, 2 Aug 2021 10:02:13
>> -0700
>>
>>> There's a reason people are pouring over the southern border and
>>> waiting in droves to properly immigrate here. Because of the
>> freedom
>>> and opportunity that can be found here.
>>
>> And if you have your way, in 50 years Americans will be pouring over
>> the Canadian border just to feel a cool breeze every few weeks.
>>
>> SteveT
>>
>> Steve Litt
>> Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the
>> Successful
>> Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
>> ---------------------------------------------------
>> PLUG-discuss mailing list -
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> _______________________________________________
> PLUG-discuss mailing list -
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
> --
> 
>                KINDNESS

>
> is most VALUABLE when it is GIVEN AWAY for
> 
>                    FREE
> ---------------------------------------------------
> PLUG-discuss mailing list - 
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>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] https://www.thestate.com/news/databases/article68603317.html
> [2] http://climate.nasa.gov
> ---------------------------------------------------
> PLUG-discuss mailing list -
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