Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 194, Issue 2

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Author: greg zegan via PLUG-discuss
Date:  
To: plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
CC: greg zegan, Mike Bushroe
Subject: Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 194, Issue 2
when I was a kid they scared everyone with global cooling.polar ice caps flipping and such.
This about controlling you and the way you think.Just found out about the Fabian Society.look em up.Central planning has been a dream since the days of Joseph in Egypt in the Bible.
Collective Oligarchy is the goal. you get nothing and like it while the oligarchs get everything serf.
    On Tuesday, August 3, 2021, 06:14:29 PM EDT, Mike Bushroe via PLUG-discuss <> wrote:



 I did not realize that there were still people who claimed to believethat there is no global warming. Makes me wonder if there might besomeone in the group that believe that the Earth is flat. If you wantto get more answers about global warming, and also see the reasoningbehind the evidence, you might want to look at <climate.nasa.gov>,




>Global warmingis junk science!




You are vastly inthe minority with that opinion, and that's assuming that you have thecrednetials to make that determination on your own. Greater than 97%of all published articles on Climate change agree that the Climate isgetting warmer, that is is 95% likely to be due to human causedsources, and will continue to get worse unless humans change hoewthey effect the climate.<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_consensus_on_climate_change#:~:text=Nearly%20all%20actively%20publishing%20climate,consensus%20to%20be%20at%20100%25.>




>Why is thesummer so cool this year?




Your facts areuncoordinated. This summer is NOT cool, nor was last summer.According to US News and World Report<https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/arizona/articles/2021-07-02/phoenixs-dry-heat-also-sets-record-for-hottest-june-ever>

The year June set anew record as the hottest June ever, so I am not sure where yourcomment about this being an unusually mild summer comes from.

Reported else whereJuly 2020 was the hottest month ever until August ended ad replacedit as the hottest month ever in Phoenix, and the record for most daysof 100 or higher was also broken in 2020 <azcentral>

Also, remember tokeep climate separate from weather in your mind. That means that therecord highs for this year and last year don't mean that globalwarming is occurring, only that weather extremes may be the cause.But when you have year after year of setting new all-time-records youhave climate change.




>Weather trends. The science tells us there are weather trends.




“Fortunately,consistent temperature estimates made by paleoclimatologists(scientists who study Earth’s past climate using environmentalclues like ice cores and tree rings) provide scientists with contextfor understanding today’s observed warming of Earth’s climate,which has no historic parallel. “<https://climate.nasa.gov/blog/3071/the-raw-truth-on-global-temperature-records/>

Weather trendsexist, but are overridden by climate. Climate trends in and out ofIce Ages, but today we are already warming faster than any post iceage measured, faster than _any_ known warming cycle. That is not atrend, and it is not an in-and-out of ice age cycle. We are enteringwhole new climate patterns.




>There was a miniice age before there where cars.




See above. Theclimate is changing faster now than it did for the mini ice age.




>The ice caps arenot melting




Your facts areuncoordinated. The north polar ice cap (arctic ice cap) is shrinkingat roughly 10% per decade, the rate has been increasing except forthe 7 years, but current estimates are that this year’s summerminimum will match the previous record low.<https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/arctic-sea-ice>




>and the oceansrising.




The sea levels havebeen climbing for decades already. It is not just predicitions butalso past measurements. So far the rate of rise in sea levels is onlyin milimeter per year, but building over time that is centimeters perdecade and meters per century. The rate of rise is also increasing.Currently most of the melting is floating ice (arctic and antarticice shelves) but as land based ice melts (Greenland and Antarticglaciers) the rate will be muchfaster.<https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/climate-change-global-sea-level>




>LA is stillhere.




The sea level risesince 1900 has only 20 centimeters, so you are correct, LA is stillthere. But for east coasters even 20 cm on top of storm surge doesmake a difference, and it will mean more days each year that Venicestreets are under water.




>For 30 years youhave been telling us




I believe 30 yearsof warnings prior to now is possible.




>in 12 years




I disbelieve thatanyone said 12 years unless they were either very mistaken or givingout disinformation to make the global warming proponents seemirrational. Please cite some sources for this claim.




>the earth isgoing to burn up.




I also disbelieveanyone claimed the Earth would "Burn Up". Reachtemperatures that would make some areas that are inhabited now becomeunlivable and areas that currently grow food become to drought riddento produce food I concurr with. Actually burning up sounds likeanother case of trying to make someone look irrational.




>Just because acar heats up mean nothing more that do not leave anything in your carthat would be adversely effected by the summer sun and the increasedinterior temperature.




I think they wereonly using it as a common, well known example of how a given setupsuch as glass, closed car interior, sun light leads unavoidably tohigher temperatures, just like increased carbon dioxide in theatmosphere, atmosphere stuck to planet, planet gets warmer.




>Why does the sunnot heat up your car during the winder? Is it global cooling?

I don't know whatkind of car you drive, but parking mine in sun light _always_ makesit get warmer inside. The only difference is that in the winter timethat is not a bad thing.




>We know toolittle about the weather to determine what is happening. That is whatthe scientists say.




Actually we know agreat deal about weather, otherwise we could not make any forecastsat all. Unfortunately one of those things that we know about it isthat it is sensitive to the 'butterfly effect' which makes it chaoticand day-to-day weather hard to forecast. But climate is weatheraveraged over time or area, and it is very easy to average all theweather for a given year to see how the climate is changing<https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/weather_climate.html>




>What we do knowis there is weather cycles and trends.




"Fortunately,consistent temperature estimates made by paleoclimatologists(scientists who study Earth’s past climate using environmentalclues like ice cores and tree rings) provide scientists with contextfor understanding today’s observed warming of Earth’s climate,which has no historic parallel."

<https://climate.nasa.gov/blog/3071/the-raw-truth-on-global-temperature-records/>




>An what aboutall those hacked emails years ago where the weather

scientists whereencouraging publishing false data.




"The ClimaticResearch Unit email controversy (also known as "Climategate")[2][3]began in November 2009 with the hacking of a server at the ClimaticResearch Unit (CRU) at the University of East Anglia (UEA) by anexternal attacker,[4][5] copying thousands of emails and computerfiles (the Climatic Research Unit documents) to various internetlocations several weeks before the Copenhagen Summit on climatechange."

"FactCheck.orgconfirmed that climate change deniers misrepresented the contents ofthe emails."

" Because ofthe timing, scientists, policy makers and public relations expertssaid that the release of emails was a smear campaign intended toundermine the climate conference."

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climatic_Research_Unit_email_controversy>




If you are stillreferring to this as significant, it means that either you have notdone anything to check your facts from over a decade ago, or that yousupport the theft of private documents, presenting out of context tocreate a smear campaign just before a major, international conferenceon setting global policies on climate change mitigation so that youcan discredit the scientist who support global warming withoutneeding to present _any_ facts to disprove it.

I find itinteresting to note that out of 160Mbytes of stolen emails,documents, and commented climate modeling code the best that theycould come up with two or three things which taken out of contextmake them seem like something bad was going on. Of course, if theyhad really been falsifying data and conspiring to lock out scientistswho did not support global warming, there would have been vastly morecomments of a much clearer, more detailed nature proving the'conspiracy'. Since the two or three little blrubs were all theycould find is almost proof itself that there was nothing going on.




>What is it youwish to achieve? What so you want us to do?




Try to save theWorld?







Mike Bushroe




On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 12:00 PM <> wrote:

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re:
      https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
      (Eric Oyen)
   2. Re:
      https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
      (Steve Litt)
   3. Re:
      https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
      (Matthew Crews)
   4. Re:
      https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
      ()
   5. Re:
      https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
      ()
   6. Re:
      https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
      (Matthew Crews)
   7. Re:
      https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
      (Matthew Gibson)
   8. Re:
      https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
      (Steve Litt)
   9. Re:
      https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
      (Steve Litt)
  10. Re:
      https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
      (Matthew Gibson)



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Eric Oyen <>
To: Main PLUG discussion list <>
Cc: 
Bcc: 
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2021 14:17:30 -0700
Subject: Re: https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
I was going to go into a long involved essay on this citing many facts and figures, but I won’t. You cited these numbers, now show your work with sources.
Some of your figures don’t account for changes in population versus use by sector or total energy = total used + total wasted. It also doesn’t explain how China managed to use over 50% of the planetary supply of coal in 2020 (more than double that of the US for the same period) And that is just coal. (See the fortune article here: https://fortune.com/2021/03/29/china-coal-energy-electricity-xi-jinping-2020-ember/) and it also doesn’t properly explain energy efficiency taking into account usage by sector (see https://www.indy100.com/news/the-world-s-most-energy-efficient-countries-7334291 ). It also doesn’t account for changes in technology in the energy sector, in specific changes in technology in the transportation sector since 1965 (see https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/09/20190930-sivak.html) or changes in price per gallon of various fossil fuels since 1965 (see Cost of gas the year you were born | The State).
Now, as for your other points, please show me hard data (in accessible format for the blind) over the last 30 years showing actual facts, verified data that isn’t cherry picked, padded or otherwise pulled out of thin air) on those points. Only then can we have a reasonable discussion. So far, you haven’t really shown much on those other points.
SO, please, show your data and show your source that supports it. Talking points (regardless of political leaning) are just not acceptable.
-EricFrom the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Library Dept.


On Jul 28, 2021, at 1:13 AM, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss <> wrote:
Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss said on Tue, 27 Jul 2021 22:53:09 -0700


So, guys, nice little debate we all got snagged into here because of
some state regulations that would prevent nearly 60 million people
from owning technologies that would make their lives more convenient.
Regulations put in place by politicians who know nothing of real
science and are trying to kiss up to china. Now, where does that leave
us?


It leaves us with 60 million people who can't game quite as hard. Boo
hoo hoo.

What's this fascination with China that you all have? China uses the
energy equivalent of 27,018 million barrels of oil for 1394 million
people, equalling 19.4 barrels per person. The US uses the equivalent of
18,684 million barrels and has 328 million people, equaling 56.9
barrels per person.

So here's the question: If some country using almost triple the energy
per person than your country says *you* are the problem and should cut,
and they won't do squat until you cut, what would you say to them?

You ask where it leaves us. Hey, if you're 60 years old, it leaves you
having lived a pretty fun life. If you're 20 years old, it leaves you
with a very hard (and probably considerably foreshortened) second half
of your life. If you were just born today, by the time you graduate
college, the world will be rife with climate refugees and water wars,
and by the time you're 50, if you last that long, the population
decline will be brutal and pretty universal except for the very rich.
All because everybody in 2021 said the other guy should cut his
emissions first.

One more thing: Some friends of mine ran the numbers and according to
them the California computer energy standards aren't as strict as those
of the EU.

I feel not a bit of sorrow for the 60 million potential gamers who play
at a slight disadvantage, if they play at all. I feel sorry for their
grandchildren.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Steve Litt <>
To: 
Cc: 
Bcc: 
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 02:36:50 -0400
Subject: Re: https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
The time to ask for sources was 4 days ago, when I still had the
websites on my browser.

So I'll just say this: Get inside a car, in the summer sunlight, whose
windows and doors have been closed for a couple hours. It's hot. Really
hot. The light from the sun passed through the glass and heated the
seats and interior, heating them up. The heated surfaces emit a much
longer wavelength infrared, which is absorbed by the glass instead of
letting the longer infrared through. So a significant fraction of the
energy from the sun gets trapped in the car, heating it considerably.
We all learned that in high school physics. Here's a reference:

https://www.greenerchoices.org/how-does-a-greenhouse-work/

So the remaining question is, does C02 act like glass? Here are some
cites that say it does:

https://earthathome.org/quick-faqs/why-is-carbon-dioxide-called-a-greenhouse-gas/

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-carbon-dioxide-is-greenhouse-gas/

Listen, I understand your need to look at science through the lens of
an agenda. The "I got mine, screw everyone else" attitude is quite
popular these days, causing people to grasp at straws when science
disagrees with their pet philosophy. But facts are facts, the more C02
we spew, the hotter Earth gets. And when it gets hot enough, it
releases the methane gas in the ocean:

https://worldoceanreview.com/en/wor-1/energy/methane-hydrates/

And with the released methane, all of a sudden it gets *a
lot* hotter. This has happened in some major extinction events:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1871174X16300488

Volcanos were the usual cause. But not this time.

If you don't believe my cites, find some of your own that aren't agenda
driven.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques

Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss said on Sun, 1 Aug 2021 14:17:30 -0700

>I was going to go into a long involved essay on this citing many facts
>and figures, but I won’t. You cited these numbers, now show your work
>with sources.
>
>Some of your figures don’t account for changes in population versus
>use by sector or total energy = total used + total wasted. It also
>doesn’t explain how China managed to use over 50% of the planetary
>supply of coal in 2020 (more than double that of the US for the same
>period) And that is just coal. (See the fortune article here:
>https://fortune.com/2021/03/29/china-coal-energy-electricity-xi-jinping-2020-ember/)
>and it also doesn’t properly explain energy efficiency taking into
>account usage by sector (see
>https://www.indy100.com/news/the-world-s-most-energy-efficient-countries-7334291
>). It also doesn’t account for changes in technology in the energy
>sector, in specific changes in technology in the transportation sector
>since 1965 (see
>https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/09/20190930-sivak.html) or
>changes in price per gallon of various fossil fuels since 1965 (see
>Cost of gas the year you were born | The State
><https://www.thestate.com/news/databases/article68603317.html>).
>
>Now, as for your other points, please show me hard data (in accessible
>format for the blind) over the last 30 years showing actual facts,
>verified data that isn’t cherry picked, padded or otherwise pulled out
>of thin air) on those points. Only then can we have a reasonable
>discussion. So far, you haven’t really shown much on those other
>points.
>
>SO, please, show your data and show your source that supports it.
>Talking points (regardless of political leaning) are just not
>acceptable.
>
>-Eric
>From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Library Dept.
>
>
>> On Jul 28, 2021, at 1:13 AM, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss
>> <> wrote:
>>
>> Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss said on Tue, 27 Jul 2021 22:53:09 -0700
>>   
>>> So, guys, nice little debate we all got snagged into here because of
>>> some state regulations that would prevent nearly 60 million people
>>> from owning technologies that would make their lives more
>>> convenient. Regulations put in place by politicians who know
>>> nothing of real science and are trying to kiss up to china. Now,
>>> where does that leave us? 
>>
>> It leaves us with 60 million people who can't game quite as hard. Boo
>> hoo hoo.
>>
>> What's this fascination with China that you all have? China uses the
>> energy equivalent of 27,018 million barrels of oil for 1394 million
>> people, equalling 19.4 barrels per person. The US uses the
>> equivalent of 18,684 million barrels and has 328 million people,
>> equaling 56.9 barrels per person.
>>
>> So here's the question: If some country using almost triple the
>> energy per person than your country says *you* are the problem and
>> should cut, and they won't do squat until you cut, what would you
>> say to them?
>>
>> You ask where it leaves us. Hey, if you're 60 years old, it leaves
>> you having lived a pretty fun life. If you're 20 years old, it
>> leaves you with a very hard (and probably considerably
>> foreshortened) second half of your life. If you were just born
>> today, by the time you graduate college, the world will be rife with
>> climate refugees and water wars, and by the time you're 50, if you
>> last that long, the population decline will be brutal and pretty
>> universal except for the very rich. All because everybody in 2021
>> said the other guy should cut his emissions first.
>>
>> One more thing: Some friends of mine ran the numbers and according to
>> them the California computer energy standards aren't as strict as
>> those of the EU.
>>
>> I feel not a bit of sorrow for the 60 million potential gamers who
>> play at a slight disadvantage, if they play at all. I feel sorry for
>> their grandchildren.
>>
>> SteveT
>>
>> Steve Litt
>> Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the
>> Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
>> ---------------------------------------------------
>> PLUG-discuss mailing list -
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss 
>




---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Matthew Crews <>
To: 
Cc: 
Bcc: 
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 05:41:54 -0700
Subject: Re: https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
All this bickering is missing the overall point:

The era of mainstream desktop PCs draining huge amounts of electricity
is over. The expectation is that we now use power efficient PCs, whether
we like it or not.

If only the graphics card vendors would make usable high end graphics
cards that don't require 550W all by itself, and 850W power supplies for
the whole system.

https://www.gamepressure.com/newsroom/geforce-rtx-3090-will-require-850w-power-supply-and-12-pin-plug/zb22f1

Power efficient electronics have been the norm for awhile, and power
efficiency is a huge deal in laptop PCs and servers (and has been for a
VERY long time). Its only just now caught up to the desktop PC market.

-Matt




---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: 
To: Main PLUG discussion list <>
Cc: 
Bcc: 
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2021 07:52:17 -0700
Subject: Re: https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs


Global warming is junk science!  Why is the summer so cool this year? 
Weather trends.  The science tells us there are weather trends.  There
was a mini ice age before there where cars.  The ice caps are not
melting and the oceans rising.  LA is still here. For 30 years you have
been telling us in 12 years the earth is going to burn up.

Just because a car heats up mean nothing more that do not leave anything
in your car that would be adversely effected by the summer sun and the
increased interior temperature.

Why does the sun not heat up your car during the winder?  Is it global
cooling?

We know too little about the weather to determine what is happening. 
That is what the scientists say.

What we do know is there is weather cycles and trends.

An what about all those hacked emails years ago where the weather
scientists where encouraging publishing false data.

What is it you wish to achieve?  What so you want us to do?



On 2021-08-01 23:36, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> The time to ask for sources was 4 days ago, when I still had the
> websites on my browser.
>
> So I'll just say this: Get inside a car, in the summer sunlight, whose
> windows and doors have been closed for a couple hours. It's hot. Really
> hot. The light from the sun passed through the glass and heated the
> seats and interior, heating them up. The heated surfaces emit a much
> longer wavelength infrared, which is absorbed by the glass instead of
> letting the longer infrared through. So a significant fraction of the
> energy from the sun gets trapped in the car, heating it considerably.
> We all learned that in high school physics. Here's a reference:
>
> https://www.greenerchoices.org/how-does-a-greenhouse-work/
>
> So the remaining question is, does C02 act like glass? Here are some
> cites that say it does:
>
> https://earthathome.org/quick-faqs/why-is-carbon-dioxide-called-a-greenhouse-gas/
>
> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-carbon-dioxide-is-greenhouse-gas/
>
> Listen, I understand your need to look at science through the lens of
> an agenda. The "I got mine, screw everyone else" attitude is quite
> popular these days, causing people to grasp at straws when science
> disagrees with their pet philosophy. But facts are facts, the more C02
> we spew, the hotter Earth gets. And when it gets hot enough, it
> releases the methane gas in the ocean:
>
> https://worldoceanreview.com/en/wor-1/energy/methane-hydrates/
>
> And with the released methane, all of a sudden it gets *a
> lot* hotter. This has happened in some major extinction events:
>
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1871174X16300488
>
> Volcanos were the usual cause. But not this time.
>
> If you don't believe my cites, find some of your own that aren't agenda
> driven.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
> Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
>
> Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss said on Sun, 1 Aug 2021 14:17:30 -0700
>
>> I was going to go into a long involved essay on this citing many facts
>> and figures, but I won’t. You cited these numbers, now show your work
>> with sources.
>>
>> Some of your figures don’t account for changes in population versus
>> use by sector or total energy = total used + total wasted. It also
>> doesn’t explain how China managed to use over 50% of the planetary
>> supply of coal in 2020 (more than double that of the US for the same
>> period) And that is just coal. (See the fortune article here:
>> https://fortune.com/2021/03/29/china-coal-energy-electricity-xi-jinping-2020-ember/)
>> and it also doesn’t properly explain energy efficiency taking into
>> account usage by sector (see
>> https://www.indy100.com/news/the-world-s-most-energy-efficient-countries-7334291
>> ). It also doesn’t account for changes in technology in the energy
>> sector, in specific changes in technology in the transportation sector
>> since 1965 (see
>> https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/09/20190930-sivak.html) or
>> changes in price per gallon of various fossil fuels since 1965 (see
>> Cost of gas the year you were born | The State
>> <https://www.thestate.com/news/databases/article68603317.html>).
>>
>> Now, as for your other points, please show me hard data (in accessible
>> format for the blind) over the last 30 years showing actual facts,
>> verified data that isn’t cherry picked, padded or otherwise pulled out
>> of thin air) on those points. Only then can we have a reasonable
>> discussion. So far, you haven’t really shown much on those other
>> points.
>>
>> SO, please, show your data and show your source that supports it.
>> Talking points (regardless of political leaning) are just not
>> acceptable.
>>
>> -Eric
>> From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Library Dept.
>>
>>
>>> On Jul 28, 2021, at 1:13 AM, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss
>>> <> wrote:
>>>
>>> Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss said on Tue, 27 Jul 2021 22:53:09 -0700
>>>
>>>> So, guys, nice little debate we all got snagged into here because of
>>>> some state regulations that would prevent nearly 60 million people
>>>> from owning technologies that would make their lives more
>>>> convenient. Regulations put in place by politicians who know
>>>> nothing of real science and are trying to kiss up to china. Now,
>>>> where does that leave us?
>>>
>>> It leaves us with 60 million people who can't game quite as hard. Boo
>>> hoo hoo.
>>>
>>> What's this fascination with China that you all have? China uses the
>>> energy equivalent of 27,018 million barrels of oil for 1394 million
>>> people, equalling 19.4 barrels per person. The US uses the
>>> equivalent of 18,684 million barrels and has 328 million people,
>>> equaling 56.9 barrels per person.
>>>
>>> So here's the question: If some country using almost triple the
>>> energy per person than your country says *you* are the problem and
>>> should cut, and they won't do squat until you cut, what would you
>>> say to them?
>>>
>>> You ask where it leaves us. Hey, if you're 60 years old, it leaves
>>> you having lived a pretty fun life. If you're 20 years old, it
>>> leaves you with a very hard (and probably considerably
>>> foreshortened) second half of your life. If you were just born
>>> today, by the time you graduate college, the world will be rife with
>>> climate refugees and water wars, and by the time you're 50, if you
>>> last that long, the population decline will be brutal and pretty
>>> universal except for the very rich. All because everybody in 2021
>>> said the other guy should cut his emissions first.
>>>
>>> One more thing: Some friends of mine ran the numbers and according to
>>> them the California computer energy standards aren't as strict as
>>> those of the EU.
>>>
>>> I feel not a bit of sorrow for the 60 million potential gamers who
>>> play at a slight disadvantage, if they play at all. I feel sorry for
>>> their grandchildren.
>>>
>>> SteveT
>>>
>>> Steve Litt
>>> Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the
>>> Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
>>> ---------------------------------------------------
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>>
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: 
To: Main PLUG discussion list <>
Cc: 
Bcc: 
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2021 09:19:31 -0700
Subject: Re: https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs

I think we are missing the point.

This is America!!  We have lost our way.

Government was instituted to protect us at the Federal level and protect
us, provide water, sewer, roads, and schools and no more at the local
level.  At the state level the government is supposed to protect us from
runaway federal government.

As for cars that use too much fuel and computers that use too may watts,
let the market place decide not the government.

We have a problem in California where they do not clean the forest floor
of dead fuel and then they wonder why there are so many wild fires.

California is also guilty of not maintaining it's power grid so now they
have rolling blackouts.

As a side note California also has the most homeless of any place on
earth.  I read the richest place on earth, silicon valley, has designer
trash cans and human excrement on the sidewalks and streets.

We have lost our way.  We need Government to get out of the way and let
the FREE market decide what Americans want to consume and let private
business provide those goods and services.

As a side note, did you know that America is producing less pollution
that it has in the past?

By the way CO2 is natural.  Plants were CREATED to take CO2 and turn it
into oxygen.

 From the Internet :

"Plants are autotrophs, which means they produce their own food. They
use the process of photosynthesis to transform water, sunlight, and
carbon dioxide into oxygen, and simple sugars that the plant uses as
fuel.".

I think my neighborhood is doing it's part.  We have an HOA that
requires each home have a mix of plants per the CC&Rs.  All of this is
artificial.  We pipe water in to the houses and some of the water finds
it's way into our drip irrigation.

On the other hand this leads some to hire gardeners.  These gardeners
drive big gas burning trucks and pull trainers full of refuge and power
tools - most of which use gas.  If I believed in global warming, which I
do not, I would be concerned.

I could start a blog on global warming.

Follow the money.  Look at Al Gore who is making money off of global
warning and stands to make a ton.

If Al Gore was really concerned wouldn't he be concerned about his
electric and gas foot print.  No he is an elitist that does not care. 
He has a huge home with huge upkeep.  If you want to lead you much lead
by example.  Al Gore has proven to be a man who wants to make money off
of our sufferings.

We have been duped.








On 2021-08-02 05:41, Matthew Crews via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> All this bickering is missing the overall point:
>
> The era of mainstream desktop PCs draining huge amounts of electricity
> is over. The expectation is that we now use power efficient PCs,
> whether
> we like it or not.
>
> If only the graphics card vendors would make usable high end graphics
> cards that don't require 550W all by itself, and 850W power supplies
> for
> the whole system.
>
> https://www.gamepressure.com/newsroom/geforce-rtx-3090-will-require-850w-power-supply-and-12-pin-plug/zb22f1
>
> Power efficient electronics have been the norm for awhile, and power
> efficiency is a huge deal in laptop PCs and servers (and has been for a
> VERY long time). Its only just now caught up to the desktop PC market.
>
> -Matt
> ---------------------------------------------------
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Matthew Crews <>
To: , Main PLUG discussion list <>
Cc: 
Bcc: 
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 09:41:57 -0700
Subject: Re: https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
On 8/2/21 9:19 AM, wrote:
>
> I think we are missing the point.
>
> This is America!!  We have lost our way.

Except... this is a global issue, and not just an American issue.

Looking at it through the lens of America first, and blinding yourself
to the global ramifications, is super short sighted.

As a member of a Linux mailing list, I would hope that we are
remembering to look up once in awhile and remember our global neighbors.




---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Matthew Gibson <>
To: Main PLUG discussion list <>
Cc: 
Bcc: 
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 10:02:13 -0700
Subject: Re: https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
So let's see our global neighbors take up more of the slack in cutting their carbon emmissions, while America continues to invest in technology that will benefit the globe and do so at market rates.  Instead of by royal dictate that lines the pockets of corrupt government members. 
There's a reason people are pouring over the southern border and waiting in droves to properly immigrate here. Because of the freedom and opportunity that can be found here. The freedom and opportunity some members of our citizenry are so quick to sacrifice to a farce of a government promise of safety or security. 
On Mon, Aug 2, 2021, 9:42 AM Matthew Crews via PLUG-discuss <> wrote:

On 8/2/21 9:19 AM, wrote:
>
> I think we are missing the point.
>
> This is America!!  We have lost our way.

Except... this is a global issue, and not just an American issue.

Looking at it through the lens of America first, and blinding yourself
to the global ramifications, is super short sighted.

As a member of a Linux mailing list, I would hope that we are
remembering to look up once in awhile and remember our global neighbors.
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Steve Litt <>
To: 
Cc: 
Bcc: 
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 14:46:03 -0400
Subject: Re: https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss said on Mon, 02 Aug 2021 09:19:31 -0700


>I could start a blog on global warming.
>
>Follow the money. 

Straight to the oil companies.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques




---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Steve Litt <>
To: 
Cc: 
Bcc: 
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 14:49:26 -0400
Subject: Re: https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
Matthew Gibson via PLUG-discuss said on Mon, 2 Aug 2021 10:02:13 -0700


>There's a reason people are pouring over the southern border and
>waiting in droves to properly immigrate here. Because of the freedom
>and opportunity that can be found here.

And if you have your way, in 50 years Americans will be pouring over
the Canadian border just to feel a cool breeze every few weeks.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques




---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Matthew Gibson <>
To: Main PLUG discussion list <>
Cc: 
Bcc: 
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 11:56:48 -0700
Subject: Re: https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
And if you have your way we will be looking a lot like Venezuela or Cuba.  
Now, aside from attempting to force your will upon me and society,  what can you personally do to lower your carbon footprint? 
On Mon, Aug 2, 2021, 11:49 AM Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss <> wrote:

Matthew Gibson via PLUG-discuss said on Mon, 2 Aug 2021 10:02:13 -0700


>There's a reason people are pouring over the southern border and
>waiting in droves to properly immigrate here. Because of the freedom
>and opportunity that can be found here.

And if you have your way, in 50 years Americans will be pouring over
the Canadian border just to feel a cool breeze every few weeks.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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