Dittos!
At 07:19 AM 8/31/2010, you wrote:
>Yes, some taxes are necessary. SOME! Look at the road
>infrastructure in Metro Phoenix. Without those roads I-10, 101,
>202, 303, I-17, 51, 43, businesses would only be able to hire people
>living within 10 miles.
>
>We still need government to do certain things like fire, police,
>water, sewer, trash pickup, roads/streets/freeways, parks, military,
>and possibly a few more things.
>
>I am for a reduction of government by as much as 95%. And I am for
>doing away with payroll taxes. But that is another story for another day.
>
>
>
>------------------------
>Keith Smith
>
>--- On Tue, 8/31/10, Lyle Tuttle <L.tuttle@cox.net> wrote:
>
>From: Lyle Tuttle <L.tuttle@cox.net>
>Subject: Re: OT: Plug Digest, Vol 62, Issue 31 - the unfixable problem.
>To: "Main PLUG discussion list" <plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
>Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 6:52 AM
>
>At 06:38 AM 8/31/2010, you wrote:
>
>>This has been a good discussion in that it has helped me understand
>>why I think Wal-Mart is a cancer.
>>
>>I have had this deep seated feeling that I could not fully
>>articulate, that I think I understand better now why I felt that way.
>>
>>I do not have the time nor the energy to fully articulate the
>>entire reasoning, in depth.
>>
>>Let's start at the most fundamental point. As a Christian I
>>believe we are part of the community. I believe we are blessed to
>>bless. In other words we should share our time, talents, and
>>treasures with our community. I also believe the word of God says
>>the worker's wages cry our for him. - James 5:4 - "Look! The
>>wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are
>>crying out against you.".
>>
>>There is two issues here.
>>
>>1) The government is in the process of creating a welfare state
>>which allows those who are so inclined to redirect that subsistence
>>into their own pockets.
>>
>>2) Wal-Mart has become an expert in creating an environment where
>>they funnel our tax dollars, indirectly thought government
>>subsistence, into their pockets.
>>
>>My point is just because you can does not make it right. I do not
>>see Wal-Mart moving to limit government subsistence. Nor do I see
>>them working to create an environment where less government
>>subsistence is necessary. What I do see is a very powerful company
>>taking advantage of the system instead of working towards fixing
>>it. I believe in the book of James it says that a person shall be
>>know by his works or the fruit he bears.
>>
>>Wal-Mart impacts the community in a bad way. They lower wages and
>>kill main street. I call that sin. Each one of us has a fiduciary
>>responsibility to do good not evil.
>>
>>Just one small example. Wal-Mart contracts with China to make some
>>of it's products. It has been documented that these Chinese
>>companies are sweatshops. Now just because one can does not mean
>>one should. This comment only addresses the labor issues, it does
>>not address the product safety issues. As of late we have found
>>that China has a real product safety problem.
>>
>>Lets look at this from my business prospective. I am a LAMP
>>developer and I have SEO skills. I could expand my website to
>>bring in lots of projects and I could hire some Indian programmers
>>and designers for $5/hr and I could charge American companies over
>>$100/hr. I could probably build a business that could bring in
>>200k or 300k a year doing so. Under this model I would be able to
>>keep the vast majority of of what I would charge. I would be well
>>off and living high off the hog.
>>
>>I could do this and it is completely legal. If I took on this
>>business model, I would be thinking only of myself. Sure I could
>>tithe to my church and even give to other charities so I could
>>point to all the good I had done. In the end I would only be
>>thinking of Keith. I would have missed an opportunity to impact my
>>community in a good and necessary way.
>>
>>Lets look at a different model. I expand my website and start
>>bringing in lots of projects. I hire LAMP programmers from the
>>local community, and I'm not cheap about it. I make less, however I
>>have just created wealth within my local community. These are
>>American citizens who buy products and services within the local
>>market. They pay taxes. This model helps us all. Doing business
>>this way is doing business the right way.
>>
>>Each of us has a responsibility to our community. If we have, we
>>must give back in some significant way. We must get to a point
>>were we understand what it means to give a hand up not a hand
>>out. There are circumstances where long term subsistence is
>>needed, however there is no place for a dependent class. We must
>>create an economy that allows the worker to make a living wage and
>>have NO need for government subsistence.
>>
>>Just because Wal-Mart can does not mean they should.
>>
>>Notice I have not suggested any government intervention.
>
>Sorry -- you said "They pay taxes."
>
>> We need no artificial wage control nor do we need vast welfare
>> programs. What we need is 1) moral business leaders 2) the Church
>> to take on it rightful roll in helping those who cannot help
>> themselves and creating a "hand up" environment.
>>
>>Recently a Christian pastor told me that the government is only
>>doing what the Church has failed to do.
>>
>>The only problem with the government filling that void is the
>>government had perverted and is now using dependency for its own
>>political gain. There are strings attached when government gets involved.
>>
>>Lets come together as a community and solve this problem.
>>
>>------------------------
>>Keith Smith
>>
>>--- On Mon, 8/30/10, joe@actionline.com <joe@actionline.com> wrote:
>>From: joe@actionline.com <joe@actionline.com>
>>Subject: Re: OT: Plug Digest, Vol 62, Issue 31 - the unfixable problem.
>>To: "Main PLUG discussion list" <plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
>>Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 3:10 PM
>>
>> > I would say Wal-mart is a great example of true greed.
>>Keith, I'm really sorry that you seem to have such a hateful attitude
>>toward Walmart. I don't want to pick a fight with you my good friend,
>>but I do feel it's important to clarify a couple things.
>>You asserted:
>> > They require tax cuts to build in your area
>> > and they pay the lowest of low wages.
>>Neither Walmart nor any other business can "require" or coerce any
>>government, city, state, or federal to provide "tax cuts."
>>It is common practice and not in the least bit unethical for any
>>business or any other entity that brings jobs and economic activity to an
>>area to seek incentives to move in to that area. No government is
>>"required" to capitulate to providing such incentives.
>>
>>There is nothing wrong with any business offering whatever wage rates that
>>they may choose to offer. Walmart can not offer lower wages than the
>>minimum wage and nobody is required to accept or stay in any job that
>>Walmart or any other employer may offer.
>> > They tell their employees to get government subsistence as part
>> > of their model.
>>I seriously question that Walmart "tells" their employees any such thing;
>>however, the point is that Walmart (and every employer) has every right to
>>decide whatever wage rates they want to offer, and nobody is "required" to
>>accept any job that employer may offer.
>> > Basically we subsidize their business model by supporting their
>> > employees with section-8 housing, food stamps, and state funded
>> > health care.
>>That is not Walmart's fault. It is unrealistic to blame Walmart for what
>>the anti-American socialists among our elected representatives have
>>contrived. Walmart did not do that, did not advocate that, and is not
>>responsible for that.
>> > I have no problem with the needy being helped however when it
>> > becomes part of a business plan, I am against it.
>>Do you really disagree with the notion that you (if you were an employer)
>>or any other employer (including Walmart) should have the right to decide
>>whatever wage rates that they want to offer? Nobody is holding a gun to a
>>Walmart employment applicant's head coercing them to accept any job that
>>Walmart may wish to offer. It is still a free country (so far).
>> > People need to make a living wage.
>>Do you really believe that employers should be coerced by our government
>>to set wage rates that employers should be required to offer other than
>>minimum wage? Even setting a minimum wage is debatable.
>> > And as they move up they should make a decent wage. In 2002 I worked
>> > with a guy who had been a department manager at Wal-Mart and he left
>> > Wal-Mart because he was only making $8/hr.
>>So what? Good for him that he was free to leave.
>> > Walmart is a cancer in my opinion.
>>Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but what benefit is it and
>>what does it accomplish to hate and berate the largest employer in the
>>world because they have a successful business that provides more
>>employment for more people than any other private sector entity in the
>>world?
>>You recommended:
>> >
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiSmlmXp-aU&>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiSmlmXp-aU&
>>Robert Greenwald is just another anti-everything Michael Moore type -- a
>>radical, liberal, elitist, left-wing extremist, socialist. It is very
>>surprising to me that you of all people would be swayed by any of his
>>one-sided drivel and distortions.
>>
>><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Greenwald>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Greenwald
>>
>>Greenwald's approach has been to adapt guerrilla filmmaking to political
>>documentaries ... in affiliation with politically sympathetic groups such
>>as Moveon.org.
>>
>>
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