Yes, some taxes are necessary.  SOME!  Look at the road infrastructure in Metro Phoenix.  Without those roads I-10, 101, 202, 303, I-17, 51, 43, businesses would only be able to hire people living within 10 miles.

We still need government to do certain things like fire, police, water, sewer, trash pickup, roads/streets/freeways, parks, military, and possibly a few more things. 

I am for a reduction of government by as much as 95%.  And I am for doing away with payroll taxes.  But that is another story for another day.



------------------------
Keith Smith

--- On Tue, 8/31/10, Lyle Tuttle <L.tuttle@cox.net> wrote:

From: Lyle Tuttle <L.tuttle@cox.net>

Subject: Re: OT: Plug Digest, Vol 62, Issue 31 - the unfixable problem.

To: "Main PLUG discussion list" <plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>

Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 6:52 AM

At 06:38 AM 8/31/2010, you wrote:

This has been a good discussion in that it has helped me understand why I think Wal-Mart is a cancer.

I have had this deep seated feeling that I could not fully articulate, that I think I understand better now why I felt that way.

I do not have the time nor the energy to fully articulate the entire reasoning, in depth.

Let's start at the most fundamental point.  As a Christian I believe we are part of the community.  I believe we are blessed to bless.  In other words we should share our time, talents, and treasures with our community.  I also believe the word of God says the worker's wages cry our for him.  -  James 5:4 - "Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you.".

There is two issues here. 

1) The government is in the process of creating a welfare state which allows those who are so inclined to redirect that subsistence into their own pockets.

2) Wal-Mart has become an expert in creating an environment where they funnel our tax dollars, indirectly thought government subsistence, into their pockets.

My point is just because you can does not make it right.  I do not see Wal-Mart moving to limit government subsistence.  Nor do I see them working to create an environment where less government subsistence is necessary. What I do see is a very powerful company taking advantage of the system instead of working towards fixing it.  I believe in the book of James it says that a person shall be know by his works or the fruit he bears.

Wal-Mart impacts the community in a bad way.  They lower wages and kill main street.  I call that sin.  Each one of us has a fiduciary responsibility to do good not evil.

Just one small example.  Wal-Mart contracts with China to make some of it's products. It has been documented that these Chinese companies are sweatshops.  Now just because one can does not mean one should.  This comment only addresses the labor issues, it does not address the product safety issues.  As of late we have found that China has a real product safety problem.

Lets look at this from my business prospective.  I am a LAMP developer and I have SEO skills.  I could expand my website to bring in lots of projects and I could hire some Indian programmers and designers for $5/hr and I could charge American companies over $100/hr.  I could probably build a business that could bring in 200k or 300k a year doing so. Under this model I would be able to keep the vast majority of of what I would charge.  I would be well off and living high off the hog.

I could do this and it is completely legal. If I took on this business model, I would be thinking only of myself.  Sure I could tithe to my church and even give to other charities so I could point to all the good I had done.  In the end I would only be thinking of Keith.  I would have missed an opportunity to impact my community in a good and necessary way.

Lets look at a different model.  I expand my website and start bringing in lots of projects.  I hire LAMP programmers from the local community, and I'm not cheap about it. I make less, however I have just created wealth within my local community.  These are American citizens who buy products and services within the local market.  They pay taxes.  This model helps us all.  Doing business this way is doing business the right way.

Each of us has a responsibility to our community.  If we have, we must give back in some significant way.  We must get to a point were we understand what it means to give a hand up not a hand out.  There are circumstances where long term subsistence is needed, however there is no place for a dependent class.  We must create an economy that allows the worker to make a living wage and have NO need for government subsistence.        

Just because Wal-Mart can does not mean they should. 

Notice I have not suggested any government intervention.

Sorry -- you said "They pay taxes."

 We need no artificial wage control nor do we need vast welfare programs.  What we need is 1) moral business leaders 2) the Church to take on it rightful roll in helping those who cannot help themselves and creating a "hand up" environment.

Recently a Christian pastor told me that the government is only doing what the Church has failed to do.

The only problem with the government filling that void is the government had perverted and is now using dependency for its own political gain.  There are strings attached when government gets involved.

Lets come together as a community and solve this problem.

------------------------

Keith Smith

--- On Mon, 8/30/10, joe@actionline.com <joe@actionline.com> wrote:

From: joe@actionline.com <joe@actionline.com>

Subject: Re: OT: Plug Digest, Vol 62, Issue 31 - the unfixable problem.

To: "Main PLUG discussion list" <plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>

Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 3:10 PM

> I would say Wal-mart is a great example of true greed.

Keith, I'm really sorry that you seem to have such a hateful attitude

toward Walmart. I don't want to pick a fight with you my good friend,

but I do feel it's important to clarify a couple things.

You asserted:

> They require tax cuts to build in your area

> and they pay the lowest of low wages.

Neither Walmart nor any other business can "require" or coerce any

government, city, state, or federal to provide "tax cuts."

It is common practice and not in the least bit unethical for any

business or any other entity that brings jobs and economic activity to an

area to seek incentives to move in to that area. No government is

"required" to capitulate to providing such incentives.

There is nothing wrong with any business offering whatever wage rates that

they may choose to offer.  Walmart can not offer lower wages than the

minimum wage and nobody is required to accept or stay in any job that

Walmart or any other employer may offer.

> They tell their employees to get government subsistence as part

> of their model.

I seriously question that Walmart "tells" their employees any such thing;

however, the point is that Walmart (and every employer) has every right to

decide whatever wage rates they want to offer, and nobody is "required" to

accept any job that employer may offer.

> Basically we subsidize their business model by supporting their

> employees with section-8 housing, food stamps, and state funded

> health care.

That is not Walmart's fault.  It is unrealistic to blame Walmart for what

the anti-American socialists among our elected representatives have

contrived. Walmart did not do that, did not advocate that, and is not

responsible for that.

> I have no problem with the needy being helped however when it

> becomes part of a business plan, I am against it.

Do you really disagree with the notion that you (if you were an employer)

or any other employer (including Walmart) should have the right to decide

whatever wage rates that they want to offer? Nobody is holding a gun to a

Walmart employment applicant's head coercing them to accept any job that

Walmart may wish to offer. It is still a free country (so far).

> People need to make a living wage.

Do you really believe that employers should be coerced by our government

to set wage rates that employers should be required to offer other than

minimum wage?  Even setting a minimum wage is debatable.

> And as they move up they should make a decent wage. In 2002 I worked

> with a guy who had been a department manager at Wal-Mart and he left

> Wal-Mart because he was only making $8/hr.

So what? Good for him that he was free to leave.

> Walmart is a cancer in my opinion.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but what benefit is it and

what does it accomplish to hate and berate the largest employer in the

world because they have a successful business that provides more

employment for more people than any other private sector entity in the

world?

You recommended:

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiSmlmXp-aU&

Robert Greenwald is just another anti-everything Michael Moore type -- a

radical, liberal, elitist, left-wing extremist, socialist. It is very

surprising to me that you of all people would be swayed by any of his

one-sided drivel and distortions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Greenwald

Greenwald's approach has been to adapt guerrilla filmmaking to political

documentaries ... in affiliation with politically sympathetic groups such

as Moveon.org.

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