Dittos! At 07:19 AM 8/31/2010, you wrote: >Yes, some taxes are necessary. SOME! Look at the road >infrastructure in Metro Phoenix. Without those roads I-10, 101, >202, 303, I-17, 51, 43, businesses would only be able to hire people >living within 10 miles. > >We still need government to do certain things like fire, police, >water, sewer, trash pickup, roads/streets/freeways, parks, military, >and possibly a few more things. > >I am for a reduction of government by as much as 95%. And I am for >doing away with payroll taxes. But that is another story for another day. > > > >------------------------ >Keith Smith > >--- On Tue, 8/31/10, Lyle Tuttle wrote: > >From: Lyle Tuttle >Subject: Re: OT: Plug Digest, Vol 62, Issue 31 - the unfixable problem. >To: "Main PLUG discussion list" >Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 6:52 AM > >At 06:38 AM 8/31/2010, you wrote: > >>This has been a good discussion in that it has helped me understand >>why I think Wal-Mart is a cancer. >> >>I have had this deep seated feeling that I could not fully >>articulate, that I think I understand better now why I felt that way. >> >>I do not have the time nor the energy to fully articulate the >>entire reasoning, in depth. >> >>Let's start at the most fundamental point. As a Christian I >>believe we are part of the community. I believe we are blessed to >>bless. In other words we should share our time, talents, and >>treasures with our community. I also believe the word of God says >>the worker's wages cry our for him. - James 5:4 - "Look! The >>wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are >>crying out against you.". >> >>There is two issues here. >> >>1) The government is in the process of creating a welfare state >>which allows those who are so inclined to redirect that subsistence >>into their own pockets. >> >>2) Wal-Mart has become an expert in creating an environment where >>they funnel our tax dollars, indirectly thought government >>subsistence, into their pockets. >> >>My point is just because you can does not make it right. I do not >>see Wal-Mart moving to limit government subsistence. Nor do I see >>them working to create an environment where less government >>subsistence is necessary. What I do see is a very powerful company >>taking advantage of the system instead of working towards fixing >>it. I believe in the book of James it says that a person shall be >>know by his works or the fruit he bears. >> >>Wal-Mart impacts the community in a bad way. They lower wages and >>kill main street. I call that sin. Each one of us has a fiduciary >>responsibility to do good not evil. >> >>Just one small example. Wal-Mart contracts with China to make some >>of it's products. It has been documented that these Chinese >>companies are sweatshops. Now just because one can does not mean >>one should. This comment only addresses the labor issues, it does >>not address the product safety issues. As of late we have found >>that China has a real product safety problem. >> >>Lets look at this from my business prospective. I am a LAMP >>developer and I have SEO skills. I could expand my website to >>bring in lots of projects and I could hire some Indian programmers >>and designers for $5/hr and I could charge American companies over >>$100/hr. I could probably build a business that could bring in >>200k or 300k a year doing so. Under this model I would be able to >>keep the vast majority of of what I would charge. I would be well >>off and living high off the hog. >> >>I could do this and it is completely legal. If I took on this >>business model, I would be thinking only of myself. Sure I could >>tithe to my church and even give to other charities so I could >>point to all the good I had done. In the end I would only be >>thinking of Keith. I would have missed an opportunity to impact my >>community in a good and necessary way. >> >>Lets look at a different model. I expand my website and start >>bringing in lots of projects. I hire LAMP programmers from the >>local community, and I'm not cheap about it. I make less, however I >>have just created wealth within my local community. These are >>American citizens who buy products and services within the local >>market. They pay taxes. This model helps us all. Doing business >>this way is doing business the right way. >> >>Each of us has a responsibility to our community. If we have, we >>must give back in some significant way. We must get to a point >>were we understand what it means to give a hand up not a hand >>out. There are circumstances where long term subsistence is >>needed, however there is no place for a dependent class. We must >>create an economy that allows the worker to make a living wage and >>have NO need for government subsistence. >> >>Just because Wal-Mart can does not mean they should. >> >>Notice I have not suggested any government intervention. > >Sorry -- you said "They pay taxes." > >> We need no artificial wage control nor do we need vast welfare >> programs. What we need is 1) moral business leaders 2) the Church >> to take on it rightful roll in helping those who cannot help >> themselves and creating a "hand up" environment. >> >>Recently a Christian pastor told me that the government is only >>doing what the Church has failed to do. >> >>The only problem with the government filling that void is the >>government had perverted and is now using dependency for its own >>political gain. There are strings attached when government gets involved. >> >>Lets come together as a community and solve this problem. >> >>------------------------ >>Keith Smith >> >>--- On Mon, 8/30/10, joe@actionline.com wrote: >>From: joe@actionline.com >>Subject: Re: OT: Plug Digest, Vol 62, Issue 31 - the unfixable problem. >>To: "Main PLUG discussion list" >>Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 3:10 PM >> >> > I would say Wal-mart is a great example of true greed. >>Keith, I'm really sorry that you seem to have such a hateful attitude >>toward Walmart. I don't want to pick a fight with you my good friend, >>but I do feel it's important to clarify a couple things. >>You asserted: >> > They require tax cuts to build in your area >> > and they pay the lowest of low wages. >>Neither Walmart nor any other business can "require" or coerce any >>government, city, state, or federal to provide "tax cuts." >>It is common practice and not in the least bit unethical for any >>business or any other entity that brings jobs and economic activity to an >>area to seek incentives to move in to that area. No government is >>"required" to capitulate to providing such incentives. >> >>There is nothing wrong with any business offering whatever wage rates that >>they may choose to offer. Walmart can not offer lower wages than the >>minimum wage and nobody is required to accept or stay in any job that >>Walmart or any other employer may offer. >> > They tell their employees to get government subsistence as part >> > of their model. >>I seriously question that Walmart "tells" their employees any such thing; >>however, the point is that Walmart (and every employer) has every right to >>decide whatever wage rates they want to offer, and nobody is "required" to >>accept any job that employer may offer. >> > Basically we subsidize their business model by supporting their >> > employees with section-8 housing, food stamps, and state funded >> > health care. >>That is not Walmart's fault. It is unrealistic to blame Walmart for what >>the anti-American socialists among our elected representatives have >>contrived. Walmart did not do that, did not advocate that, and is not >>responsible for that. >> > I have no problem with the needy being helped however when it >> > becomes part of a business plan, I am against it. >>Do you really disagree with the notion that you (if you were an employer) >>or any other employer (including Walmart) should have the right to decide >>whatever wage rates that they want to offer? Nobody is holding a gun to a >>Walmart employment applicant's head coercing them to accept any job that >>Walmart may wish to offer. It is still a free country (so far). >> > People need to make a living wage. >>Do you really believe that employers should be coerced by our government >>to set wage rates that employers should be required to offer other than >>minimum wage? Even setting a minimum wage is debatable. >> > And as they move up they should make a decent wage. In 2002 I worked >> > with a guy who had been a department manager at Wal-Mart and he left >> > Wal-Mart because he was only making $8/hr. >>So what? Good for him that he was free to leave. >> > Walmart is a cancer in my opinion. >>Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but what benefit is it and >>what does it accomplish to hate and berate the largest employer in the >>world because they have a successful business that provides more >>employment for more people than any other private sector entity in the >>world? >>You recommended: >> > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiSmlmXp-aU& >>Robert Greenwald is just another anti-everything Michael Moore type -- a >>radical, liberal, elitist, left-wing extremist, socialist. It is very >>surprising to me that you of all people would be swayed by any of his >>one-sided drivel and distortions. >> >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Greenwald >> >>Greenwald's approach has been to adapt guerrilla filmmaking to political >>documentaries ... in affiliation with politically sympathetic groups such >>as Moveon.org. >> >> >>--------------------------------------------------- >>PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us >>To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> >> >>--------------------------------------------------- >>PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us >>To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> > >-----Inline Attachment Follows----- > >--------------------------------------------------- >PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us >To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > >--------------------------------------------------- >PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us >To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss