Joshua,
I'd like to hear your solution. Please write up a detailed plan for changing this model to something else. Also outline what it is you would like.
------------------------
Keith Smith
--- On Sat, 8/1/09, Joshua Zeidner <
jjzeidner@gmail.com> wrote:
> From: Joshua Zeidner <jjzeidner@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in PHX
> To: michael@butash.net, "Main PLUG discussion list" <plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 11:29 PM
> Michael,
>
> I've had very similar experiences. The
> question why is this
> happening? What can AZ be- are we in the best of all
> possible worlds?
> I think we can do better.
>
> As far as labor standards go, they are
> atrocious. There is no
> wonder why good people don't want to work here- employment
> here is
> like some kind of bear trap that kicks in after 2
> months. I've had
> such bad experiences around here I rarely even bother to
> answer ads.
> This further contributes to the transience, reduces
> property values
> and community integrity, etc. etc. In the BA you have
> a part of the
> equation that never is considered by our politicians.
> While they dont
> have labor unions per se, they do have the Universities
> which act as
> an anchor for maintaining relations with the commercial
> sector. Once
> again our congress appears to be opting (quietly I may add)
> for
> gutting the University system in favor of maintaining the
> cheap
> illegal labor status quo. Many think this is good for
> AZ. It is not.
> It contributes to the scenario of AZ being a corporate
> dumping ground
> for CA. Look at most of the politicians. they
> live in CA. There are
> even people who run 'AZ Entrepreneurship' groups who live
> in CA. It
> doesnt take too much research to figure out whats going
> on. All these
> things contribute to the effects you mention such as
> tendency to rush
> into management rather than productive roles. Outside
> of the IT
> sweatshops you've got fun loving folkz down at the
> co-working zone who
> will be glad to tell you all about the wonders of Ruby and
> the project
> theyre working on that will never be completed. A few
> months later
> they score a job in the BA and kiss AZ goodbye.
>
> CA is going to be a big mess- if we cut our losses
> now we could
> emerge a major winner in coming years.
>
> -jmz
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 10:31 PM, Michael Butash<michael@butash.net>
> wrote:
> > Well, largely I agree with Joshua's assessment, sounds
> like his
> > experience is much like mine...
> >
> > I moved to the Bay area in 99, worked tech there for 2
> years, moved back
> > when things imploded in 01. Since being back versed
> with tech skill and
> > corporate politics, I've only ever been able to
> describe most business
> > in Arizona as bass-ackward and/or hot-air propelled.
> > Largely I note
> > Arizona seems to encourage abuse of fair labor
> standards act for
> > salaried employees, resulting in a lot of "sweatshop
> IT" mentality in
> > corporations here. Funny I heard mentioned godaddy
> and 2wire, as they
> > tend to be some of the biggest offenders of running
> said sweat shops.
> > Give your buddy 6 months at the Daddy to acclimate to
> them and ask what
> > he thinks. :)
> >
> > When I did move back to AZ, I'd joined some
> professional "networking"
> > groups like AZIPA that led to not much more than
> pedantic bickering and
> > posturing, not much at all helpful for business or
> technology
> > opportunities. Ultimately I saw it splinter,
> fracture, and a lot of
> > people simply lose interest because of it, including
> myself. From that
> > I found being an island unto yourself isn't always a
> bad thing, simply
> > networking with people I met through work. Only
> recently have I
> > somewhat opened up to professional networking though
> LinkedIn and user
> > groups like this one, but really just to keep touch
> with associates and
> > clients of mine. I'm still gun shy on the rest...
> >
> > Since being back in AZ, I've worked for a lot of IT
> shops and been
> > exposed to a lot of people shifting between jobs,
> finding that more or
> > less most corporate politics surrounding IT are the
> same, and not
> > typically good. I worked 3 years at GoDaddy prior
> and through massive
> > growth, while one of my best work experiences
> (building cool/expensive
> > stuff), it was also one of the worst (meat grinder
> stressful workplace,
> > implosive politics). GD and frankly a lot of
> companies I've been
> > exposed to are more alike than not, typically because
> of clueless upper
> > management and general lack of ethics, but somehow
> forge along despite
> > themselves. Closest analogy I can equated it to
> universally is "the
> > blind leading the blind", where self-serving politics,
> combined with
> > poor technological leadership, and now volatile
> economics eventually
> > dictate perspective reasoning of how things work.
> Bad things tend to
> > result, and often...
> >
> > The difference between working in the Bay Area and in
> Arizona is stark.
> > Generally I found a lot better talent there, with a
> stronger likeliness
> > to embrace technology, and be passionate about their
> work. Here there's
> > just a lot of people graduating DeVry, UoP, WIU, and
> other "schools"
> > cranking out mediocre certified/degreed cannon-fodder
> for the local IT
> > shops, trying to get paid by the IT dream job. It's
> almost scary
> > walking into new customer businesses consulting
> anymore, pretty safe to
> > assume someone knows nothing than anything about the
> tech they support.
> > While I did have this too in the Bay Area, the
> clueless admin syndrome
> > is a heck of a lot more prevalent here. Work ethics
> tend to be crappier
> > too. I dunno, something in the water perhaps...
> >
> > Look around at the sheer number of call centers for
> businesses out of
> > state we have here, and that should tell you
> something. A lot of
> > low-pay, mediocre jobs, and a career path to become a
> cattle herder of
> > these call centers, maybe even move into middle
> management if you're
> > lucky. Businesses like GoDaddy, 2wire, CableOne,
> Cox, ETelecare, etc
> > simply rotate people in and out like underwear, but
> they're the armpits
> > that fund a lot of the IT business around town as
> well, as someone's got
> > to support all the infrastructure to take those calls.
> Godaddy's call
> > centers are slightly different because they actually
> MAKE them money, so
> > they tend to commission merit pay and lavish gifts
> readily upon them to
> > keep everyone happy, but it's still at the root just
> another sweatshop
> > call center. Other call centers are much less
> forgiving...
> >
> > Supporting IT shops around call centers tends to be a
> double-edged
> > sword, especially when the call center slave mentality
> pervades into the
> > how companies deal with or even drive IT folk. Even
> non-call-centers
> > seem to act this way locally more commonly than not,
> just because they
> > can, and it's the atmosphere people are becoming
> acclimated to. As
> > people migrate jobs, I think ultimately this pervasive
> mentality results
> > in excessive overwork and general dissatisfaction,
> causing a
> > trickle-down effect into other work places.
> >
> > These disinterested/jaded/overworked/underpaid workers
> now head out into
> > other IT shops to maintain infrastructure over their
> head and
> > undermanned, meaning things degrade eventually even if
> once deployed
> > properly. I'm not at all certain if this is just a
> local thing, or the
> > new national standard at work, but it seems much more
> pervasive here
> > than certain other localities I work with.
> Professional ethics are hard
> > to find these days in general with hard times indeed.
> Anyone else of
> > hiring capacity notice try hiring *good* people these
> days? Pretty
> > difficult if you ask me.
> >
> > Overall, working in the tech field here for the past 8
> years in a more
> > senior capacity, I'm often uncertain I want to remain
> in AZ long-term.
> > As I get older, my flame to set upon the world
> diminishes, I'll probably
> > just wander until I feel comfortable for a bit. I
> love AZ, but I'm
> > fairly disparaged by the business opportunities here
> after all these
> > years...
> >
> > So enough hot-air of my own, take it as you will, but
> that's my take on
> > things. Feel free to disagree. :)
> >
> > Good discussion indeed, interesting to hear other's
> opinions on the
> > matter.
> >
> > -mb
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 2009-08-01 at 19:08 -0700, Joshua Zeidner
> wrote:
> >> On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 6:50 PM, keith smith<klsmith2020@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I think what is really missing from this
> equation is mentoring and training.
> >>
> >> what I would like to see is some real support
> from AZ government to
> >> help make tech companies feel welcome here. This
> means:
> >>
> >> 1) making the valley a good place not only to
> build a company but to
> >> build a *career*. this means buy in from both
> sides of the equation.
> >> I would like to see a bit more address at lower
> capital levels, but
> >> that may prove to be difficult. It seems that
> most existing concepts
> >> are kind of stuck in the industrial model, where
> you build a factory
> >> in a place with low taxes and hire low wage
> workers, but technology
> >> requires high wage workers who demand a good
> thriving job market. The
> >> needs are quite different. The biggest issue
> with starting a company
> >> out here is finding people. Where are all the
> people? in CA.
> >> because it has a good job market. If we can
> outsource to India, we
> >> sure as hell can outsource to Arizona.
> >>
> >> 2) setting up low cost legal structure and as
> you say mentoring to
> >> really help stimulate technology development.
> We've seen (at least
> >> nominal) efforts in the past. Why did they fail?
> This means real and
> >> adequate assistance in bringing concepts to
> production and market. A
> >> small investment in this area will yield returns
> in tax base and
> >> property value by a factor of hundreds. Arizona
> has the potential to
> >> pick up a lot of this commercial activity because
> California is
> >> currently set to become a tax strapped nightmare
> state to build your
> >> business. If AZ fails to see the opportunity
> here, we will lose out
> >> big time. Currently the budget proceedings are
> still in gridlock.
> >>
> >> the mayor of Phoenix seems to have the right
> idea, he was suggesting
> >> recently a green technology center near Phx
> center. I think thats the
> >> direction AZ needs to go. -jmz
> >>
> >> >
> >> > I like the idea that folks are getting
> together to network. This is a really cool idea. Even
> for non-technical stuff like finding out how people deal
> with customers, contracting, book-keeping, ETC.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ------------------------
> >> > Keith Smith
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Joshua Zeidner <jjzeidner@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> From: Joshua Zeidner <jjzeidner@gmail.com>
> >> >> Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff
> to do in PHX
> >> >> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" <plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
> >> >> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 6:08 PM
> >> >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:09 PM,
> >> >> Alan Dayley<alandd@consultpros.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > Joshua,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I put all your replies together in
> one long document
> >> >> and reread them.
> >> >> > I am still confused a bit.
> Enlightenment via email
> >> >> rarely occurs.
> >> >> > However, I really want to understand
> your position in
> >> >> this discussion.
> >> >> > Let me summarize what I understand
> from your
> >> >> replies.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ---[Start my paraphasing of your
> comments]---
> >> >> >
> >> >> > - There is a small group or groups
> of people who keep
> >> >> spinning off
> >> >> > communities using tired marketing
> techniques. This
> >> >> results in blogs
> >> >> > but not true communities.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > - Some of these people cannot deal
> with existing
> >> >> structure and the
> >> >> > efforts of the past.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > - These weak attempts do not
> articulate goals or
> >> >> purpose well, if at all.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > - We must honestly look at criticism
> to learn and
> >> >> improve.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > - These weak people need to address
> the efforts of the
> >> >> past and
> >> >> > provide suggestions on how they can
> be improved upon.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > - Getting political support will
> provide legitimacy to
> >> >> their efforts.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > - Phoenix will attract technology
> businesses because
> >> >> of the relative
> >> >> > low cost and this will help improve
> things.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > - You have first hand experiences of
> weak, marketing
> >> >> fronted,
> >> >> > community building efforts.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > - Many 'entrepreneurs' have grand
> ideas but get
> >> >> nowhere with them
> >> >> > because they are not real
> businesses.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > - People at a co-working location or
> coffee shop will
> >> >> not help you
> >> >> > with your business unless you pay
> them.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > - Most people at co-working started
> their one person
> >> >> business after
> >> >> > being laid-off and are not serious
> about it. They
> >> >> are really just
> >> >> > looking for the next full time gig.
> This will get in
> >> >> your way if you
> >> >> > have real business work to do.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > - We must look truthfully at this
> issue if we are to
> >> >> make progress.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > - There are no serious incubators
> and entrepreneurial
> >> >> meetups in
> >> >> > Phoenix. No announcements on VC
> funding of companies
> >> >> so it's not
> >> >> > really entrepreneurial growth.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ---[End my paraphrasing of your
> comments]---
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I see validity in every one of these
> comments. I
> >> >> also think many of
> >> >> > them can be balanced by the other
> point of view. I
> >> >> still have
> >> >> > questions, if I may ask, before I
> state too much of my
> >> >> own thinking.
> >> >> > I want to learn more about your
> thinking.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 1. What does "deal with existing
> structure" mean?
> >> >> This confuses me,
> >> >> > not know what structure you are
> talking about.
> >> >>
> >> >> Many user groups have been formed and
> continue to
> >> >> exist... how is
> >> >> <groupX> different? other than
> its led by
> >> >> person Y? I mean dealing
> >> >> with some of these groups I feel like Im
> back to age 8
> >> >> trying to gain
> >> >> admittance into the neighborhood
> treehouse. Perhaps I
> >> >> should spend
> >> >> more time drinking beer with these
> people? Seeing the
> >> >> same small
> >> >> group churning out 'communities' is at
> first funny, then
> >> >> annoying. I
> >> >> just see a real lack of serious intent,
> and unless that is
> >> >> noted
> >> >> publicly, it makes all of us look bad.
> I really dont
> >> >> think Im being
> >> >> destructive or malicious here, Im
> pointing out some valid
> >> >> observations.
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 2. To what efforts of the past are
> you referring? I
> >> >> want to
> >> >> > understand the size and nature of
> efforts to creating
> >> >> a community that
> >> >> > you feel were legitimate but perhaps
> did not work as
> >> >> planned.
> >> >>
> >> >> I remember when I first came to AZ
> that there was an
> >> >> tech
> >> >> incubator... what happened to it?
> Which
> >> >> political agents currently
> >> >> support technology development in the
> valley? what do
> >> >> they think
> >> >> about your org? these things are pretty
> basic...
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 3. What political support is needed?
> You mean
> >> >> government funding of
> >> >> > events or startups or just verbal
> support or what?
> >> >>
> >> >> I wouldn't expect funding, but it
> would be good to
> >> >> see some
> >> >> political buy in. Lack of just supports
> my opinions,
> >> >> that its really
> >> >> as Lisa said, camouflage for poor
> organization.
> >> >> Without any good
> >> >> signposts, all this will produce are
> people who get jaded
> >> >> and
> >> >> disaffected with regards to this
> location. If you had
> >> >> something
> >> >> together I doubt that a good politician
> would turn you
> >> >> down.
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 4. Why is it wrong or a problem for
> someone who is
> >> >> laid-off to have
> >> >> > grand ideas, talk about them and
> they never come to
> >> >> be?
> >> >>
> >> >> Its not. As I said, I don't find any
> of these
> >> >> things highly
> >> >> offensive- but like you I am free to
> express myself.
> >> >> Sorry if its not
> >> >> filled with abundant exaltations.
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 5. Is it not conceivable that people
> might help each
> >> >> other in business
> >> >> > efforts? Isn't strengthening and
> creating such a
> >> >> culture a good idea
> >> >> > or should such a goal not be pursued
> because it is not
> >> >> practically
> >> >> > possible?
> >> >>
> >> >> sure. good thread btw. -jmz
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Alan
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:20 PM,
> Joshua Zeidner<jjzeidner@gmail.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> another great one:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> "OK, my question stands. Where
> are the incubators,
> >> >> the "bootstrap"
> >> >> >> seminars, the serious
> entrepreneurial meetups in
> >> >> Phoenix??? (crickets
> >> >> >> chirping). Phoenix just ain't
> happening as a
> >> >> serious place where
> >> >> >> serious people are doing serious
> things. No one
> >> >> wants it badly enough
> >> >> >> here. This paper should be
> having at least one
> >> >> article a week on a new
> >> >> >> startup and the VC firm who
> funded it.
> >> >> Helloooo????? is anybody out
> >> >> >> there...."
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> a better way to phrase this: we
> need to stop
> >> >> pretending these
> >> >> >> whimsical efforts churned out by
> local
> >> >> self-employed marketing experts
> >> >> >> are sufficient. They are not.
> We should be
> >> >> asking the hard
> >> >> >> questions, not playing games.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> -jmz
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:04 PM,
> Joshua
> >> >> Zeidner<jjzeidner@gmail.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >>> another point, honestly
> reading through some
> >> >> of the criticisms on
> >> >> >>> azcentral and being of the
> cafe dwelling creed
> >> >> myself, I'd have to say
> >> >> >>> that many of those points
> are accurate. I've
> >> >> heard lots of
> >> >> >>> 'entrepreneurs' with big
> ideas around here who
> >> >> never get anywhere with
> >> >> >>> them. Sorry, but a word
> press template
> >> >> doesn't make you an
> >> >> >>> entrepreneur.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> "These are the same people
> you see at
> >> >> Starbucks, Boarders or any
> >> >> >>> other wi-fi hot spot, they
> are not
> >> >> entrepreneurs they are attention
> >> >> >>> (inappropriate term)."
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> "Many of the Co-Worker
> location founders
> >> >> tout other people to
> >> >> >>> collaborate with and who can
> "compensate for
> >> >> your deficiencies". Do
> >> >> >>> you really believe someone
> that you are not
> >> >> paying as an employee is
> >> >> >>> going to somehow compensate
> for your
> >> >> deficiencies and make your
> >> >> >>> business better? That kind
> of help doesn't
> >> >> come without a price."
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> oh so true...
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> "You are more likely to
> get a bunch of
> >> >> people chatting to you over
> >> >> >>> your "work" so you wont be
> concentrating as
> >> >> you should to focus on
> >> >> >>> your business. Most of these
> people started
> >> >> businesses after being
> >> >> >>> laid off. They are searching
> for a new job and
> >> >> they aren't really
> >> >> >>> serious about their
> "businesses" so how do you
> >> >> expect them to give you
> >> >> >>> valuable, serious advice.
> Are these the kind
> >> >> of people you need to
> >> >> >>> compensate for your
> deficiencies? A bunch of
> >> >> people half-as running
> >> >> >>> their "business" while
> searching for a real
> >> >> job and bothering you with
> >> >> >>> their expertise that got
> them laid off in the
> >> >> first place."
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> oh so so true...
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> I would be willing to bet
> the commenter
> >> >> above is an tried and true
> >> >> >>> successful entrepreneur.
> Perhaps the reason
> >> >> I am so skeptical is
> >> >> >>> because I know these kind of
> people so well.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> sorry I really wish I
> could be more
> >> >> supportive... but : truth is
> >> >> >>> the foundation of progress.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> -jmz
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:28
> PM, Joshua
> >> >> Zeidner<jjzeidner@gmail.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >>>> Alan,
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> Wish I had time to
> respond to all
> >> >> these points right now, not sure
> >> >> >>>> you read me the way I
> would prefer
> >> >> however. Its not so grave a
> >> >> >>>> warning, just getting
> the word out on my
> >> >> first hand experiences. Im
> >> >> >>>> just one of many- but
> hopefully an
> >> >> impartial observer and someone
> >> >> >>>> genuinely concerned for
> AZ.
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> all the best, jmz
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at
> 3:12 PM, Alan
> >> >> Dayley<alandd@consultpros.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >>>>> Josh,
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> I feel warned. And
> I don't
> >> >> understand the reason for such a strong
> warning.
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> There are people in
> every industry,
> >> >> government or community who wish
> >> >> >>>>> to fleece their
> "community" for their
> >> >> own profit instead of mutual
> >> >> >>>>> benefit. The trick
> is to find the
> >> >> positive people and ignore the
> >> >> >>>>> rest. Apply the
> same filter with
> >> >> every event, group or blogger in the
> >> >> >>>>> lists and links I
> provided. I don't
> >> >> expect bloggers or techies to be
> >> >> >>>>> any different, as if
> being techie
> >> >> makes one a saint.
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> Some of those
> bloggers are purely
> >> >> commercial or completely neglected,
> >> >> >>>>> I'm sure. Some of
> the groups or
> >> >> events or sites listed are lousy,
> >> >> >>>>> boring or poor
> marketing excuses to
> >> >> sell something. Some are not out
> >> >> >>>>> to create community
> but to build a
> >> >> "kingdom" for their own benefit.
> >> >> >>>>> They are the duds.
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> Let's look at a few
> positives:
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> - Read the Gangplank
> Manifesto on
> >> >> their home page at
> >> >> >>>>> http://gangplankhq.com. That looks like
> >> >> a great articulation of their
> >> >> >>>>> goals and purpose.
> Ones I strongly
> >> >> support!
> >> >> >>>>> -- Read how the
> manifesto came to be
> >> >> on Derek's blog at
> >> >> >>>>> http://derekneighbors.com/2009/07/collaborative-writing-or-how-the-gangplank-manifesto-was-written/
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> - Gangplank has
> hosted or is hosting:
> >> >> >>>>> -- MobiFest - a day
> long conference on
> >> >> developing for phones like
> >> >> >>>>> iPhone or Android
> >> >> >>>>> -- Gangplank Jr. - a
> 2-3 hour Saturday
> >> >> event for kids 5-15 to learn
> >> >> >>>>> programming
> concepts
> >> >> >>>>> -- Wordpress
> training classes for
> >> >> minimal cost or no-cost for non-profit
> orgs
> >> >> >>>>> -- Laid Off Camp - a
> day long
> >> >> conference on job searching and
> entreprenuership
> >> >> >>>>> -- Barcamp Pheonix -
> a day long
> >> >> conference on software development
> >> >> >>>>> -- TEDx night -
> Watch ted.com videos
> >> >> and discuss them
> >> >> >>>>> -- OpenPhoenix - a
> night of open mic
> >> >> music and entertainment
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> - The last http://desertcodecamp.com/ was held on June 13th and
> >> >> nearly
> >> >> >>>>> filled DeVry's
> Phoenix campus with
> >> >> developers talking about code or
> >> >> >>>>> making code. Free
> lunch of pizza and
> >> >> sub sandwiches was provided too.
> >> >> >>>>> Put together by
> volunteers.
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> - If you're into
> Microsoft based
> >> >> development tech, the people who
> >> >> >>>>> maintain the http://azgroups.com site do an annual all-day event at
> >> >> >>>>> venues like the
> Orphium Theater and at
> >> >> no cost to attendees. Fine,
> >> >> >>>>> it's marketing for
> MS but it's put on
> >> >> by volunteers here in the valley
> >> >> >>>>> and a great way for
> people to learn
> >> >> about things that improve their
> >> >> >>>>> career skills.
> >> >> >>>>> (http://www.componentart.com/BLOGS/milos/archive/2009/06/02/scott-guthrie-event-2009-phoenix-az.aspx)
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> - The local Ruby On
> Rails group has
> >> >> monthly meetings with around 30
> >> >> >>>>> regularly in
> attendance.
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> - The Java group is
> also well attended
> >> >> every month.
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> - The third http://podcampaz.com/ is coming up in November, put on
> >> >> by
> >> >> >>>>> voluteers at no cost
> (donation
> >> >> requested) to attendees. Had about 350
> >> >> >>>>> people attend last
> year (if I recall)
> >> >> for two days of conference.
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> - The http://azentrepreneurship.com/ conference will be in
> >> >> November
> >> >> >>>>> for the forth year.
> This one costs
> >> >> $100+ but should be as well
> >> >> >>>>> attended as last
> year with 200+
> >> >> people. Funded and organized in part
> >> >> >>>>> by a local venture
> capital group.
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> - The first http://ignitephoenix.com event was held a year ago
> with
> >> >> a
> >> >> >>>>> little over 100 in
> attendance and has
> >> >> grown to fill the 600 seat
> >> >> >>>>> Theather at Tempe
> Center for the Arts
> >> >> back in June. The connections
> >> >> >>>>> made there live well
> past the event.
> >> >> >>>>> -- Oh, a city
> council member and the
> >> >> mayor of Tempe spoke this last
> >> >> >>>>> time, though he was
> a bit silly trying
> >> >> to be Tempe exclusive. That
> >> >> >>>>> seems to be at least
> verbal political
> >> >> support.
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> - The second
> ABLEConf on FS/OSS is
> >> >> being planned for October and
> >> >> >>>>> should be better
> than last year. (Go
> >> >> Hans and team!)
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> I'm not going to go
> on, though I could
> >> >> point out several purely social
> >> >> >>>>> events like http://phoenixfridaynights.com/, it's east and west
> >> >> valley
> >> >> >>>>> analogs, East Valley
> Thursday Morning
> >> >> breakfasts, Tempe Geeks Lunch,
> >> >> >>>>> South Valley Geek
> Meet and Eat and
> >> >> Gangplank's Brown Gag lunch
> >> >> >>>>> presentations every
> Wednesday.
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> Now, having said all
> of that "giddy
> >> >> blind optimism," I'd like to
> >> >> >>>>> understand how the
> above does not
> >> >> address the efforts of the past or
> >> >> >>>>> provide improvement
> over past efforts.
> >> >> What are the real needs of the
> >> >> >>>>> community, if not
> some of the above?
> >> >> What would you suggest? How can
> >> >> >>>>> PLUG be a part of
> it?
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> Alan
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009
> at 1:34 PM,
> >> >> Joshua Zeidner<jjzeidner@gmail.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >>>>>> Alan,
> >> >> >>>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>> while I
> appreciate your post,
> >> >> and anyone who is making a sincere
> >> >> >>>>>> effort to build
> community in
> >> >> Phoenix... be warned. There are some
> >> >> >>>>>> small groups who
> periodically
> >> >> spawn off new 'communities' every month
> >> >> >>>>>> or so. Look
> closely and you see
> >> >> the same few people with reused
> >> >> >>>>>> marketing
> recipes. Lots of blog
> >> >> and not too much community I'm
> >> >> >>>>>> afraid. Their
> efforts amount to
> >> >> some simple branding and putting up a
> >> >> >>>>>> blog. While
> these things are not
> >> >> really particularily offensive to
> >> >> >>>>>> me, they do
> somewhat detract from
> >> >> interest in the real needs of the
> >> >> >>>>>> community here.
> Some of these
> >> >> people are just outright idiotic and
> >> >> >>>>>> cannot deal with
> existing
> >> >> structure and refuse to accept the
> history
> >> >> >>>>>> of efforts in
> the past. They
> >> >> lack any articulation of their goals and
> >> >> >>>>>> purpose. Often
> times they have
> >> >> trouble organizing even small groups
> >> >> >>>>>> of 2 or 3.
> Dont forget we've had
> >> >> a tech incubator here. Lets not
> >> >> >>>>>> smack down
> sincere criticism in
> >> >> favor of giddy blind optimism,
> >> >> >>>>>> remember you
> can't improve without
> >> >> criticism. I would take these
> >> >> >>>>>> people much more
> seriously if they
> >> >> addressed the efforts of the past
> >> >> >>>>>> and perhaps
> suggested how they are
> >> >> going to improve on them, or
> >> >> >>>>>> perhaps indicate
> what has changed
> >> >> that will make them a success.
> >> >> >>>>>> Maybe seeking
> real political
> >> >> support would gain some legitimacy.
> >> >> >>>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>> on the
> positive side, I think
> >> >> Phoenix will attract a lot of
> >> >> >>>>>> technology
> business due to its
> >> >> relative low cost and no doubt you will
> >> >> >>>>>> start to see
> community
> >> >> infrastructure grow. We are seeing some
> real
> >> >> >>>>>> urban
> development happening in Phx
> >> >> metro which has me very excited. I
> >> >> >>>>>> think when the
> macroeconomic
> >> >> problems are sorted out we will see
> >> >> >>>>>> downtown Phx
> bloom. Im hoping
> >> >> that the average Arizonan gets involved
> >> >> >>>>>> in the political
> process and make
> >> >> sure that the corruption stays out
> >> >> >>>>>> of city and
> state politics.
> >> >> Coming from NY, Im recognizing a lot
> of
> >> >> >>>>>> positive
> development trends in Phx
> >> >> metro.
> >> >> >>>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>> -jmz
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >>
> ---------------------------------------------------
> >> >> >>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing
> list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
> >> >> >>>>> To subscribe,
> unsubscribe, or to
> >> >> change your mail settings:
> >> >> >>>>> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>
> >> >>
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