Michael,
I've had very similar experiences. The question why is this
happening? What can AZ be- are we in the best of all possible worlds?
I think we can do better.
As far as labor standards go, they are atrocious. There is no
wonder why good people don't want to work here- employment here is
like some kind of bear trap that kicks in after 2 months. I've had
such bad experiences around here I rarely even bother to answer ads.
This further contributes to the transience, reduces property values
and community integrity, etc. etc. In the BA you have a part of the
equation that never is considered by our politicians. While they dont
have labor unions per se, they do have the Universities which act as
an anchor for maintaining relations with the commercial sector. Once
again our congress appears to be opting (quietly I may add) for
gutting the University system in favor of maintaining the cheap
illegal labor status quo. Many think this is good for AZ. It is not.
It contributes to the scenario of AZ being a corporate dumping ground
for CA. Look at most of the politicians. they live in CA. There are
even people who run 'AZ Entrepreneurship' groups who live in CA. It
doesnt take too much research to figure out whats going on. All these
things contribute to the effects you mention such as tendency to rush
into management rather than productive roles. Outside of the IT
sweatshops you've got fun loving folkz down at the co-working zone who
will be glad to tell you all about the wonders of Ruby and the project
theyre working on that will never be completed. A few months later
they score a job in the BA and kiss AZ goodbye.
CA is going to be a big mess- if we cut our losses now we could
emerge a major winner in coming years.
-jmz
On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 10:31 PM, Michael Butash<
michael@butash.net> wrote:
> Well, largely I agree with Joshua's assessment, sounds like his
> experience is much like mine...
>
> I moved to the Bay area in 99, worked tech there for 2 years, moved back
> when things imploded in 01. Since being back versed with tech skill and
> corporate politics, I've only ever been able to describe most business
> in Arizona as bass-ackward and/or hot-air propelled.
> Largely I note
> Arizona seems to encourage abuse of fair labor standards act for
> salaried employees, resulting in a lot of "sweatshop IT" mentality in
> corporations here. Funny I heard mentioned godaddy and 2wire, as they
> tend to be some of the biggest offenders of running said sweat shops.
> Give your buddy 6 months at the Daddy to acclimate to them and ask what
> he thinks. :)
>
> When I did move back to AZ, I'd joined some professional "networking"
> groups like AZIPA that led to not much more than pedantic bickering and
> posturing, not much at all helpful for business or technology
> opportunities. Ultimately I saw it splinter, fracture, and a lot of
> people simply lose interest because of it, including myself. From that
> I found being an island unto yourself isn't always a bad thing, simply
> networking with people I met through work. Only recently have I
> somewhat opened up to professional networking though LinkedIn and user
> groups like this one, but really just to keep touch with associates and
> clients of mine. I'm still gun shy on the rest...
>
> Since being back in AZ, I've worked for a lot of IT shops and been
> exposed to a lot of people shifting between jobs, finding that more or
> less most corporate politics surrounding IT are the same, and not
> typically good. I worked 3 years at GoDaddy prior and through massive
> growth, while one of my best work experiences (building cool/expensive
> stuff), it was also one of the worst (meat grinder stressful workplace,
> implosive politics). GD and frankly a lot of companies I've been
> exposed to are more alike than not, typically because of clueless upper
> management and general lack of ethics, but somehow forge along despite
> themselves. Closest analogy I can equated it to universally is "the
> blind leading the blind", where self-serving politics, combined with
> poor technological leadership, and now volatile economics eventually
> dictate perspective reasoning of how things work. Bad things tend to
> result, and often...
>
> The difference between working in the Bay Area and in Arizona is stark.
> Generally I found a lot better talent there, with a stronger likeliness
> to embrace technology, and be passionate about their work. Here there's
> just a lot of people graduating DeVry, UoP, WIU, and other "schools"
> cranking out mediocre certified/degreed cannon-fodder for the local IT
> shops, trying to get paid by the IT dream job. It's almost scary
> walking into new customer businesses consulting anymore, pretty safe to
> assume someone knows nothing than anything about the tech they support.
> While I did have this too in the Bay Area, the clueless admin syndrome
> is a heck of a lot more prevalent here. Work ethics tend to be crappier
> too. I dunno, something in the water perhaps...
>
> Look around at the sheer number of call centers for businesses out of
> state we have here, and that should tell you something. A lot of
> low-pay, mediocre jobs, and a career path to become a cattle herder of
> these call centers, maybe even move into middle management if you're
> lucky. Businesses like GoDaddy, 2wire, CableOne, Cox, ETelecare, etc
> simply rotate people in and out like underwear, but they're the armpits
> that fund a lot of the IT business around town as well, as someone's got
> to support all the infrastructure to take those calls. Godaddy's call
> centers are slightly different because they actually MAKE them money, so
> they tend to commission merit pay and lavish gifts readily upon them to
> keep everyone happy, but it's still at the root just another sweatshop
> call center. Other call centers are much less forgiving...
>
> Supporting IT shops around call centers tends to be a double-edged
> sword, especially when the call center slave mentality pervades into the
> how companies deal with or even drive IT folk. Even non-call-centers
> seem to act this way locally more commonly than not, just because they
> can, and it's the atmosphere people are becoming acclimated to. As
> people migrate jobs, I think ultimately this pervasive mentality results
> in excessive overwork and general dissatisfaction, causing a
> trickle-down effect into other work places.
>
> These disinterested/jaded/overworked/underpaid workers now head out into
> other IT shops to maintain infrastructure over their head and
> undermanned, meaning things degrade eventually even if once deployed
> properly. I'm not at all certain if this is just a local thing, or the
> new national standard at work, but it seems much more pervasive here
> than certain other localities I work with. Professional ethics are hard
> to find these days in general with hard times indeed. Anyone else of
> hiring capacity notice try hiring *good* people these days? Pretty
> difficult if you ask me.
>
> Overall, working in the tech field here for the past 8 years in a more
> senior capacity, I'm often uncertain I want to remain in AZ long-term.
> As I get older, my flame to set upon the world diminishes, I'll probably
> just wander until I feel comfortable for a bit. I love AZ, but I'm
> fairly disparaged by the business opportunities here after all these
> years...
>
> So enough hot-air of my own, take it as you will, but that's my take on
> things. Feel free to disagree. :)
>
> Good discussion indeed, interesting to hear other's opinions on the
> matter.
>
> -mb
>
>
> On Sat, 2009-08-01 at 19:08 -0700, Joshua Zeidner wrote:
>> On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 6:50 PM, keith smith<klsmith2020@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > I think what is really missing from this equation is mentoring and training.
>>
>> what I would like to see is some real support from AZ government to
>> help make tech companies feel welcome here. This means:
>>
>> 1) making the valley a good place not only to build a company but to
>> build a *career*. this means buy in from both sides of the equation.
>> I would like to see a bit more address at lower capital levels, but
>> that may prove to be difficult. It seems that most existing concepts
>> are kind of stuck in the industrial model, where you build a factory
>> in a place with low taxes and hire low wage workers, but technology
>> requires high wage workers who demand a good thriving job market. The
>> needs are quite different. The biggest issue with starting a company
>> out here is finding people. Where are all the people? in CA.
>> because it has a good job market. If we can outsource to India, we
>> sure as hell can outsource to Arizona.
>>
>> 2) setting up low cost legal structure and as you say mentoring to
>> really help stimulate technology development. We've seen (at least
>> nominal) efforts in the past. Why did they fail? This means real and
>> adequate assistance in bringing concepts to production and market. A
>> small investment in this area will yield returns in tax base and
>> property value by a factor of hundreds. Arizona has the potential to
>> pick up a lot of this commercial activity because California is
>> currently set to become a tax strapped nightmare state to build your
>> business. If AZ fails to see the opportunity here, we will lose out
>> big time. Currently the budget proceedings are still in gridlock.
>>
>> the mayor of Phoenix seems to have the right idea, he was suggesting
>> recently a green technology center near Phx center. I think thats the
>> direction AZ needs to go. -jmz
>>
>> >
>> > I like the idea that folks are getting together to network. This is a really cool idea. Even for non-technical stuff like finding out how people deal with customers, contracting, book-keeping, ETC.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------
>> > Keith Smith
>> >
>> >
>> > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Joshua Zeidner <jjzeidner@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> From: Joshua Zeidner <jjzeidner@gmail.com>
>> >> Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in PHX
>> >> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" <plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
>> >> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 6:08 PM
>> >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:09 PM,
>> >> Alan Dayley<alandd@consultpros.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Joshua,
>> >> >
>> >> > I put all your replies together in one long document
>> >> and reread them.
>> >> > I am still confused a bit. Enlightenment via email
>> >> rarely occurs.
>> >> > However, I really want to understand your position in
>> >> this discussion.
>> >> > Let me summarize what I understand from your
>> >> replies.
>> >> >
>> >> > ---[Start my paraphasing of your comments]---
>> >> >
>> >> > - There is a small group or groups of people who keep
>> >> spinning off
>> >> > communities using tired marketing techniques. This
>> >> results in blogs
>> >> > but not true communities.
>> >> >
>> >> > - Some of these people cannot deal with existing
>> >> structure and the
>> >> > efforts of the past.
>> >> >
>> >> > - These weak attempts do not articulate goals or
>> >> purpose well, if at all.
>> >> >
>> >> > - We must honestly look at criticism to learn and
>> >> improve.
>> >> >
>> >> > - These weak people need to address the efforts of the
>> >> past and
>> >> > provide suggestions on how they can be improved upon.
>> >> >
>> >> > - Getting political support will provide legitimacy to
>> >> their efforts.
>> >> >
>> >> > - Phoenix will attract technology businesses because
>> >> of the relative
>> >> > low cost and this will help improve things.
>> >> >
>> >> > - You have first hand experiences of weak, marketing
>> >> fronted,
>> >> > community building efforts.
>> >> >
>> >> > - Many 'entrepreneurs' have grand ideas but get
>> >> nowhere with them
>> >> > because they are not real businesses.
>> >> >
>> >> > - People at a co-working location or coffee shop will
>> >> not help you
>> >> > with your business unless you pay them.
>> >> >
>> >> > - Most people at co-working started their one person
>> >> business after
>> >> > being laid-off and are not serious about it. They
>> >> are really just
>> >> > looking for the next full time gig. This will get in
>> >> your way if you
>> >> > have real business work to do.
>> >> >
>> >> > - We must look truthfully at this issue if we are to
>> >> make progress.
>> >> >
>> >> > - There are no serious incubators and entrepreneurial
>> >> meetups in
>> >> > Phoenix. No announcements on VC funding of companies
>> >> so it's not
>> >> > really entrepreneurial growth.
>> >> >
>> >> > ---[End my paraphrasing of your comments]---
>> >> >
>> >> > I see validity in every one of these comments. I
>> >> also think many of
>> >> > them can be balanced by the other point of view. I
>> >> still have
>> >> > questions, if I may ask, before I state too much of my
>> >> own thinking.
>> >> > I want to learn more about your thinking.
>> >> >
>> >> > 1. What does "deal with existing structure" mean?
>> >> This confuses me,
>> >> > not know what structure you are talking about.
>> >>
>> >> Many user groups have been formed and continue to
>> >> exist... how is
>> >> <groupX> different? other than its led by
>> >> person Y? I mean dealing
>> >> with some of these groups I feel like Im back to age 8
>> >> trying to gain
>> >> admittance into the neighborhood treehouse. Perhaps I
>> >> should spend
>> >> more time drinking beer with these people? Seeing the
>> >> same small
>> >> group churning out 'communities' is at first funny, then
>> >> annoying. I
>> >> just see a real lack of serious intent, and unless that is
>> >> noted
>> >> publicly, it makes all of us look bad. I really dont
>> >> think Im being
>> >> destructive or malicious here, Im pointing out some valid
>> >> observations.
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > 2. To what efforts of the past are you referring? I
>> >> want to
>> >> > understand the size and nature of efforts to creating
>> >> a community that
>> >> > you feel were legitimate but perhaps did not work as
>> >> planned.
>> >>
>> >> I remember when I first came to AZ that there was an
>> >> tech
>> >> incubator... what happened to it? Which
>> >> political agents currently
>> >> support technology development in the valley? what do
>> >> they think
>> >> about your org? these things are pretty basic...
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > 3. What political support is needed? You mean
>> >> government funding of
>> >> > events or startups or just verbal support or what?
>> >>
>> >> I wouldn't expect funding, but it would be good to
>> >> see some
>> >> political buy in. Lack of just supports my opinions,
>> >> that its really
>> >> as Lisa said, camouflage for poor organization.
>> >> Without any good
>> >> signposts, all this will produce are people who get jaded
>> >> and
>> >> disaffected with regards to this location. If you had
>> >> something
>> >> together I doubt that a good politician would turn you
>> >> down.
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > 4. Why is it wrong or a problem for someone who is
>> >> laid-off to have
>> >> > grand ideas, talk about them and they never come to
>> >> be?
>> >>
>> >> Its not. As I said, I don't find any of these
>> >> things highly
>> >> offensive- but like you I am free to express myself.
>> >> Sorry if its not
>> >> filled with abundant exaltations.
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > 5. Is it not conceivable that people might help each
>> >> other in business
>> >> > efforts? Isn't strengthening and creating such a
>> >> culture a good idea
>> >> > or should such a goal not be pursued because it is not
>> >> practically
>> >> > possible?
>> >>
>> >> sure. good thread btw. -jmz
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > Alan
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Joshua Zeidner<jjzeidner@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >> another great one:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "OK, my question stands. Where are the incubators,
>> >> the "bootstrap"
>> >> >> seminars, the serious entrepreneurial meetups in
>> >> Phoenix??? (crickets
>> >> >> chirping). Phoenix just ain't happening as a
>> >> serious place where
>> >> >> serious people are doing serious things. No one
>> >> wants it badly enough
>> >> >> here. This paper should be having at least one
>> >> article a week on a new
>> >> >> startup and the VC firm who funded it.
>> >> Helloooo????? is anybody out
>> >> >> there...."
>> >> >>
>> >> >> a better way to phrase this: we need to stop
>> >> pretending these
>> >> >> whimsical efforts churned out by local
>> >> self-employed marketing experts
>> >> >> are sufficient. They are not. We should be
>> >> asking the hard
>> >> >> questions, not playing games.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> -jmz
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Joshua
>> >> Zeidner<jjzeidner@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >>> another point, honestly reading through some
>> >> of the criticisms on
>> >> >>> azcentral and being of the cafe dwelling creed
>> >> myself, I'd have to say
>> >> >>> that many of those points are accurate. I've
>> >> heard lots of
>> >> >>> 'entrepreneurs' with big ideas around here who
>> >> never get anywhere with
>> >> >>> them. Sorry, but a word press template
>> >> doesn't make you an
>> >> >>> entrepreneur.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> "These are the same people you see at
>> >> Starbucks, Boarders or any
>> >> >>> other wi-fi hot spot, they are not
>> >> entrepreneurs they are attention
>> >> >>> (inappropriate term)."
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> "Many of the Co-Worker location founders
>> >> tout other people to
>> >> >>> collaborate with and who can "compensate for
>> >> your deficiencies". Do
>> >> >>> you really believe someone that you are not
>> >> paying as an employee is
>> >> >>> going to somehow compensate for your
>> >> deficiencies and make your
>> >> >>> business better? That kind of help doesn't
>> >> come without a price."
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> oh so true...
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> "You are more likely to get a bunch of
>> >> people chatting to you over
>> >> >>> your "work" so you wont be concentrating as
>> >> you should to focus on
>> >> >>> your business. Most of these people started
>> >> businesses after being
>> >> >>> laid off. They are searching for a new job and
>> >> they aren't really
>> >> >>> serious about their "businesses" so how do you
>> >> expect them to give you
>> >> >>> valuable, serious advice. Are these the kind
>> >> of people you need to
>> >> >>> compensate for your deficiencies? A bunch of
>> >> people half-as running
>> >> >>> their "business" while searching for a real
>> >> job and bothering you with
>> >> >>> their expertise that got them laid off in the
>> >> first place."
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> oh so so true...
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I would be willing to bet the commenter
>> >> above is an tried and true
>> >> >>> successful entrepreneur. Perhaps the reason
>> >> I am so skeptical is
>> >> >>> because I know these kind of people so well.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> sorry I really wish I could be more
>> >> supportive... but : truth is
>> >> >>> the foundation of progress.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> -jmz
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Joshua
>> >> Zeidner<jjzeidner@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >>>> Alan,
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Wish I had time to respond to all
>> >> these points right now, not sure
>> >> >>>> you read me the way I would prefer
>> >> however. Its not so grave a
>> >> >>>> warning, just getting the word out on my
>> >> first hand experiences. Im
>> >> >>>> just one of many- but hopefully an
>> >> impartial observer and someone
>> >> >>>> genuinely concerned for AZ.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> all the best, jmz
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Alan
>> >> Dayley<alandd@consultpros.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >>>>> Josh,
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> I feel warned. And I don't
>> >> understand the reason for such a strong warning.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> There are people in every industry,
>> >> government or community who wish
>> >> >>>>> to fleece their "community" for their
>> >> own profit instead of mutual
>> >> >>>>> benefit. The trick is to find the
>> >> positive people and ignore the
>> >> >>>>> rest. Apply the same filter with
>> >> every event, group or blogger in the
>> >> >>>>> lists and links I provided. I don't
>> >> expect bloggers or techies to be
>> >> >>>>> any different, as if being techie
>> >> makes one a saint.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> Some of those bloggers are purely
>> >> commercial or completely neglected,
>> >> >>>>> I'm sure. Some of the groups or
>> >> events or sites listed are lousy,
>> >> >>>>> boring or poor marketing excuses to
>> >> sell something. Some are not out
>> >> >>>>> to create community but to build a
>> >> "kingdom" for their own benefit.
>> >> >>>>> They are the duds.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> Let's look at a few positives:
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> - Read the Gangplank Manifesto on
>> >> their home page at
>> >> >>>>> http://gangplankhq.com. That looks like
>> >> a great articulation of their
>> >> >>>>> goals and purpose. Ones I strongly
>> >> support!
>> >> >>>>> -- Read how the manifesto came to be
>> >> on Derek's blog at
>> >> >>>>> http://derekneighbors.com/2009/07/collaborative-writing-or-how-the-gangplank-manifesto-was-written/
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> - Gangplank has hosted or is hosting:
>> >> >>>>> -- MobiFest - a day long conference on
>> >> developing for phones like
>> >> >>>>> iPhone or Android
>> >> >>>>> -- Gangplank Jr. - a 2-3 hour Saturday
>> >> event for kids 5-15 to learn
>> >> >>>>> programming concepts
>> >> >>>>> -- Wordpress training classes for
>> >> minimal cost or no-cost for non-profit orgs
>> >> >>>>> -- Laid Off Camp - a day long
>> >> conference on job searching and entreprenuership
>> >> >>>>> -- Barcamp Pheonix - a day long
>> >> conference on software development
>> >> >>>>> -- TEDx night - Watch ted.com videos
>> >> and discuss them
>> >> >>>>> -- OpenPhoenix - a night of open mic
>> >> music and entertainment
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> - The last http://desertcodecamp.com/ was held on June 13th and
>> >> nearly
>> >> >>>>> filled DeVry's Phoenix campus with
>> >> developers talking about code or
>> >> >>>>> making code. Free lunch of pizza and
>> >> sub sandwiches was provided too.
>> >> >>>>> Put together by volunteers.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> - If you're into Microsoft based
>> >> development tech, the people who
>> >> >>>>> maintain the http://azgroups.com site do an annual all-day event at
>> >> >>>>> venues like the Orphium Theater and at
>> >> no cost to attendees. Fine,
>> >> >>>>> it's marketing for MS but it's put on
>> >> by volunteers here in the valley
>> >> >>>>> and a great way for people to learn
>> >> about things that improve their
>> >> >>>>> career skills.
>> >> >>>>> (http://www.componentart.com/BLOGS/milos/archive/2009/06/02/scott-guthrie-event-2009-phoenix-az.aspx)
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> - The local Ruby On Rails group has
>> >> monthly meetings with around 30
>> >> >>>>> regularly in attendance.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> - The Java group is also well attended
>> >> every month.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> - The third http://podcampaz.com/ is coming up in November, put on
>> >> by
>> >> >>>>> voluteers at no cost (donation
>> >> requested) to attendees. Had about 350
>> >> >>>>> people attend last year (if I recall)
>> >> for two days of conference.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> - The http://azentrepreneurship.com/ conference will be in
>> >> November
>> >> >>>>> for the forth year. This one costs
>> >> $100+ but should be as well
>> >> >>>>> attended as last year with 200+
>> >> people. Funded and organized in part
>> >> >>>>> by a local venture capital group.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> - The first http://ignitephoenix.com event was held a year ago with
>> >> a
>> >> >>>>> little over 100 in attendance and has
>> >> grown to fill the 600 seat
>> >> >>>>> Theather at Tempe Center for the Arts
>> >> back in June. The connections
>> >> >>>>> made there live well past the event.
>> >> >>>>> -- Oh, a city council member and the
>> >> mayor of Tempe spoke this last
>> >> >>>>> time, though he was a bit silly trying
>> >> to be Tempe exclusive. That
>> >> >>>>> seems to be at least verbal political
>> >> support.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> - The second ABLEConf on FS/OSS is
>> >> being planned for October and
>> >> >>>>> should be better than last year. (Go
>> >> Hans and team!)
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> I'm not going to go on, though I could
>> >> point out several purely social
>> >> >>>>> events like http://phoenixfridaynights.com/, it's east and west
>> >> valley
>> >> >>>>> analogs, East Valley Thursday Morning
>> >> breakfasts, Tempe Geeks Lunch,
>> >> >>>>> South Valley Geek Meet and Eat and
>> >> Gangplank's Brown Gag lunch
>> >> >>>>> presentations every Wednesday.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> Now, having said all of that "giddy
>> >> blind optimism," I'd like to
>> >> >>>>> understand how the above does not
>> >> address the efforts of the past or
>> >> >>>>> provide improvement over past efforts.
>> >> What are the real needs of the
>> >> >>>>> community, if not some of the above?
>> >> What would you suggest? How can
>> >> >>>>> PLUG be a part of it?
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> Alan
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 1:34 PM,
>> >> Joshua Zeidner<jjzeidner@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >>>>>> Alan,
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> while I appreciate your post,
>> >> and anyone who is making a sincere
>> >> >>>>>> effort to build community in
>> >> Phoenix... be warned. There are some
>> >> >>>>>> small groups who periodically
>> >> spawn off new 'communities' every month
>> >> >>>>>> or so. Look closely and you see
>> >> the same few people with reused
>> >> >>>>>> marketing recipes. Lots of blog
>> >> and not too much community I'm
>> >> >>>>>> afraid. Their efforts amount to
>> >> some simple branding and putting up a
>> >> >>>>>> blog. While these things are not
>> >> really particularily offensive to
>> >> >>>>>> me, they do somewhat detract from
>> >> interest in the real needs of the
>> >> >>>>>> community here. Some of these
>> >> people are just outright idiotic and
>> >> >>>>>> cannot deal with existing
>> >> structure and refuse to accept the history
>> >> >>>>>> of efforts in the past. They
>> >> lack any articulation of their goals and
>> >> >>>>>> purpose. Often times they have
>> >> trouble organizing even small groups
>> >> >>>>>> of 2 or 3. Dont forget we've had
>> >> a tech incubator here. Lets not
>> >> >>>>>> smack down sincere criticism in
>> >> favor of giddy blind optimism,
>> >> >>>>>> remember you can't improve without
>> >> criticism. I would take these
>> >> >>>>>> people much more seriously if they
>> >> addressed the efforts of the past
>> >> >>>>>> and perhaps suggested how they are
>> >> going to improve on them, or
>> >> >>>>>> perhaps indicate what has changed
>> >> that will make them a success.
>> >> >>>>>> Maybe seeking real political
>> >> support would gain some legitimacy.
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> on the positive side, I think
>> >> Phoenix will attract a lot of
>> >> >>>>>> technology business due to its
>> >> relative low cost and no doubt you will
>> >> >>>>>> start to see community
>> >> infrastructure grow. We are seeing some real
>> >> >>>>>> urban development happening in Phx
>> >> metro which has me very excited. I
>> >> >>>>>> think when the macroeconomic
>> >> problems are sorted out we will see
>> >> >>>>>> downtown Phx bloom. Im hoping
>> >> that the average Arizonan gets involved
>> >> >>>>>> in the political process and make
>> >> sure that the corruption stays out
>> >> >>>>>> of city and state politics.
>> >> Coming from NY, Im recognizing a lot of
>> >> >>>>>> positive development trends in Phx
>> >> metro.
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> -jmz
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
>> >> >>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to
>> >> change your mail settings:
>> >> >>>>> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>
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