Joshua, I'd like to hear your solution. Please write up a detailed plan for changing this model to something else. Also outline what it is you would like. ------------------------ Keith Smith --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > From: Joshua Zeidner > Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in PHX > To: michael@butash.net, "Main PLUG discussion list" > Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 11:29 PM > Michael, > >   I've had very similar experiences.  The > question why is this > happening?  What can AZ be- are we in the best of all > possible worlds? > I think we can do better. > >   As far as labor standards go, they are > atrocious.  There is no > wonder why good people don't want to work here- employment > here is > like some kind of bear trap that kicks in after 2 > months.  I've had > such bad experiences around here I rarely even bother to > answer ads. > This further contributes to the transience, reduces > property values > and community integrity, etc. etc.  In the BA you have > a part of the > equation that never is considered by our politicians.  > While they dont > have labor unions per se, they do have the Universities > which act as > an anchor for maintaining relations with the commercial > sector.  Once > again our congress appears to be opting (quietly I may add) > for > gutting the University system in favor of maintaining the > cheap > illegal labor status quo.  Many think this is good for > AZ.  It is not. > It contributes to the scenario of AZ being a corporate > dumping ground > for CA.  Look at most of the politicians.  they > live in CA.  There are > even people who run 'AZ Entrepreneurship' groups who live > in CA.  It > doesnt take too much research to figure out whats going > on.  All these > things contribute to the effects you mention such as > tendency to rush > into management rather than productive roles.  Outside > of the IT > sweatshops you've got fun loving folkz down at the > co-working zone who > will be glad to tell you all about the wonders of Ruby and > the project > theyre working on that will never be completed.  A few > months later > they score a job in the BA and kiss AZ goodbye. > >   CA is going to be a big mess- if we cut our losses > now we could > emerge a major winner in coming years. > >   -jmz > > > > On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 10:31 PM, Michael Butash > wrote: > > Well, largely I agree with Joshua's assessment, sounds > like his > > experience is much like mine... > > > > I moved to the Bay area in 99, worked tech there for 2 > years, moved back > > when things imploded in 01.  Since being back versed > with tech skill and > > corporate politics, I've only ever been able to > describe most business > > in Arizona as bass-ackward and/or hot-air propelled. > >  Largely I note > > Arizona seems to encourage abuse of fair labor > standards act for > > salaried employees, resulting in a lot of "sweatshop > IT" mentality in > > corporations here.  Funny I heard mentioned godaddy > and 2wire, as they > > tend to be some of the biggest offenders of running > said sweat shops. > > Give your buddy 6 months at the Daddy to acclimate to > them and ask what > > he thinks.  :) > > > > When I did move back to AZ, I'd joined some > professional "networking" > > groups like AZIPA that led to not much more than > pedantic bickering and > > posturing, not much at all helpful for business or > technology > > opportunities.  Ultimately I saw it splinter, > fracture, and a lot of > > people simply lose interest because of it, including > myself.  From that > > I found being an island unto yourself isn't always a > bad thing, simply > > networking with people I met through work.  Only > recently have I > > somewhat opened up to professional networking though > LinkedIn and user > > groups like this one, but really just to keep touch > with associates and > > clients of mine.  I'm still gun shy on the rest... > > > > Since being back in AZ, I've worked for a lot of IT > shops and been > > exposed to a lot of people shifting between jobs, > finding that more or > > less most corporate politics surrounding IT are the > same, and not > > typically good.  I worked 3 years at GoDaddy prior > and through massive > > growth, while one of my best work experiences > (building cool/expensive > > stuff), it was also one of the worst (meat grinder > stressful workplace, > > implosive politics).  GD and frankly a lot of > companies I've been > > exposed to are more alike than not, typically because > of clueless upper > > management and general lack of ethics, but somehow > forge along despite > > themselves.  Closest analogy I can equated it to > universally is "the > > blind leading the blind", where self-serving politics, > combined with > > poor technological leadership, and now volatile > economics eventually > > dictate perspective reasoning of how things work. >  Bad things tend to > > result, and often... > > > > The difference between working in the Bay Area and in > Arizona is stark. > > Generally I found a lot better talent there, with a > stronger likeliness > > to embrace technology, and be passionate about their > work.  Here there's > > just a lot of people graduating DeVry, UoP, WIU, and > other "schools" > > cranking out mediocre certified/degreed cannon-fodder > for the local IT > > shops, trying to get paid by the IT dream job.  It's > almost scary > > walking into new customer businesses consulting > anymore, pretty safe to > > assume someone knows nothing than anything about the > tech they support. > > While I did have this too in the Bay Area, the > clueless admin syndrome > > is a heck of a lot more prevalent here.  Work ethics > tend to be crappier > > too.  I dunno, something in the water perhaps... > > > > Look around at the sheer number of call centers for > businesses out of > > state we have here, and that should tell you > something.  A lot of > > low-pay, mediocre jobs, and a career path to become a > cattle herder of > > these call centers, maybe even move into middle > management if you're > > lucky.  Businesses like GoDaddy, 2wire, CableOne, > Cox, ETelecare, etc > > simply rotate people in and out like underwear, but > they're the armpits > > that fund a lot of the IT business around town as > well, as someone's got > > to support all the infrastructure to take those calls. >  Godaddy's call > > centers are slightly different because they actually > MAKE them money, so > > they tend to commission merit pay and lavish gifts > readily upon them to > > keep everyone happy, but it's still at the root just > another sweatshop > > call center.  Other call centers are much less > forgiving... > > > > Supporting IT shops around call centers tends to be a > double-edged > > sword, especially when the call center slave mentality > pervades into the > > how companies deal with or even drive IT folk.  Even > non-call-centers > > seem to act this way locally more commonly than not, > just because they > > can, and it's the atmosphere people are becoming > acclimated to.  As > > people migrate jobs, I think ultimately this pervasive > mentality results > > in excessive overwork and general dissatisfaction, > causing a > > trickle-down effect into other work places. > > > > These disinterested/jaded/overworked/underpaid workers > now head out into > > other IT shops to maintain infrastructure over their > head and > > undermanned, meaning things degrade eventually even if > once deployed > > properly.  I'm not at all certain if this is just a > local thing, or the > > new national standard at work, but it seems much more > pervasive here > > than certain other localities I work with. >  Professional ethics are hard > > to find these days in general with hard times indeed. >  Anyone else of > > hiring capacity notice try hiring *good* people these > days?  Pretty > > difficult if you ask me. > > > > Overall, working in the tech field here for the past 8 > years in a more > > senior capacity, I'm often uncertain I want to remain > in AZ long-term. > > As I get older, my flame to set upon the world > diminishes, I'll probably > > just wander until I feel comfortable for a bit.  I > love AZ, but I'm > > fairly disparaged by the business opportunities here > after all these > > years... > > > > So enough hot-air of my own, take it as you will, but > that's my take on > > things.  Feel free to disagree.  :) > > > > Good discussion indeed, interesting to hear other's > opinions on the > > matter. > > > > -mb > > > > > > On Sat, 2009-08-01 at 19:08 -0700, Joshua Zeidner > wrote: > >> On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 6:50 PM, keith smith > wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > I think what is really missing from this > equation is mentoring and training. > >> > >>   what I would like to see is some real support > from AZ government to > >> help make tech companies feel welcome here.  This > means: > >> > >>   1) making the valley a good place not only to > build a company but to > >> build a *career*.  this means buy in from both > sides of the equation. > >> I would like to see a bit more address at lower > capital levels, but > >> that may prove to be difficult.  It seems that > most existing concepts > >> are kind of stuck in the industrial model, where > you build a factory > >> in a place with low taxes and hire low wage > workers, but technology > >> requires high wage workers who demand a good > thriving job market.  The > >> needs are quite different.  The biggest issue > with starting a company > >> out here is finding people.  Where are all the > people?  in CA. > >> because it has a good job market.  If we can > outsource to India, we > >> sure as hell can outsource to Arizona. > >> > >>   2) setting up low cost legal structure and as > you say mentoring to > >> really help stimulate technology development. >  We've seen (at least > >> nominal) efforts in the past.  Why did they fail? >  This means real and > >> adequate assistance in bringing concepts to > production and market.  A > >> small investment in this area will yield returns > in tax base and > >> property value by a factor of hundreds.  Arizona > has the potential to > >> pick up a lot of this commercial activity because > California is > >> currently set to become a tax strapped nightmare > state to build your > >> business.  If AZ fails to see the opportunity > here, we will lose out > >> big time.  Currently the budget proceedings are > still in gridlock. > >> > >>   the mayor of Phoenix seems to have the right > idea, he was suggesting > >> recently a green technology center near Phx > center.  I think thats the > >> direction AZ needs to go.  -jmz > >> > >> > > >> > I like the idea that folks are getting > together to network.  This is a really cool idea.  Even > for non-technical stuff like finding out how people deal > with customers, contracting, book-keeping, ETC. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------ > >> > Keith Smith > >> > > >> > > >> > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Joshua Zeidner > wrote: > >> > > >> >> From: Joshua Zeidner > >> >> Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff > to do in PHX > >> >> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" > >> >> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 6:08 PM > >> >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:09 PM, > >> >> Alan Dayley > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > Joshua, > >> >> > > >> >> > I put all your replies together in > one long document > >> >> and reread them. > >> >> > I am still confused a bit. >  Enlightenment via email > >> >> rarely occurs. > >> >> > However, I really want to understand > your position in > >> >> this discussion. > >> >> >  Let me summarize what I understand > from your > >> >> replies. > >> >> > > >> >> > ---[Start my paraphasing of your > comments]--- > >> >> > > >> >> > - There is a small group or groups > of people who keep > >> >> spinning off > >> >> > communities using tired marketing > techniques.  This > >> >> results in blogs > >> >> > but not true communities. > >> >> > > >> >> > - Some of these people cannot deal > with existing > >> >> structure and the > >> >> > efforts of the past. > >> >> > > >> >> > - These weak attempts do not > articulate goals or > >> >> purpose well, if at all. > >> >> > > >> >> > - We must honestly look at criticism > to learn and > >> >> improve. > >> >> > > >> >> > - These weak people need to address > the efforts of the > >> >> past and > >> >> > provide suggestions on how they can > be improved upon. > >> >> > > >> >> > - Getting political support will > provide legitimacy to > >> >> their efforts. > >> >> > > >> >> > - Phoenix will attract technology > businesses because > >> >> of the relative > >> >> > low cost and this will help improve > things. > >> >> > > >> >> > - You have first hand experiences of > weak, marketing > >> >> fronted, > >> >> > community building efforts. > >> >> > > >> >> > - Many 'entrepreneurs' have grand > ideas but get > >> >> nowhere with them > >> >> > because they are not real > businesses. > >> >> > > >> >> > - People at a co-working location or > coffee shop will > >> >> not help you > >> >> > with your business unless you pay > them. > >> >> > > >> >> > - Most people at co-working started > their one person > >> >> business after > >> >> > being laid-off and are not serious > about it.  They > >> >> are really just > >> >> > looking for the next full time gig. >  This will get in > >> >> your way if you > >> >> > have real business work to do. > >> >> > > >> >> > - We must look truthfully at this > issue if we are to > >> >> make progress. > >> >> > > >> >> > - There are no serious incubators > and entrepreneurial > >> >> meetups in > >> >> > Phoenix.  No announcements on VC > funding of companies > >> >> so it's not > >> >> > really entrepreneurial growth. > >> >> > > >> >> > ---[End my paraphrasing of your > comments]--- > >> >> > > >> >> > I see validity in every one of these > comments.  I > >> >> also think many of > >> >> > them can be balanced by the other > point of view.  I > >> >> still have > >> >> > questions, if I may ask, before I > state too much of my > >> >> own thinking. > >> >> > I want to learn more about your > thinking. > >> >> > > >> >> > 1. What does "deal with existing > structure" mean? > >> >>  This confuses me, > >> >> > not know what structure you are > talking about. > >> >> > >> >>   Many user groups have been formed and > continue to > >> >> exist... how is > >> >> different?  other than > its led by > >> >> person Y?  I mean dealing > >> >> with some of these groups I feel like Im > back to age 8 > >> >> trying to gain > >> >> admittance into the neighborhood > treehouse.  Perhaps I > >> >> should spend > >> >> more time drinking beer with these > people?  Seeing the > >> >> same small > >> >> group churning out 'communities' is at > first funny, then > >> >> annoying.  I > >> >> just see a real lack of serious intent, > and unless that is > >> >> noted > >> >> publicly, it makes all of us look bad. >  I really dont > >> >> think Im being > >> >> destructive or malicious here, Im > pointing out some valid > >> >> observations. > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > 2. To what efforts of the past are > you referring?  I > >> >> want to > >> >> > understand the size and nature of > efforts to creating > >> >> a community that > >> >> > you feel were legitimate but perhaps > did not work as > >> >> planned. > >> >> > >> >>   I remember when I first came to AZ > that there was an > >> >> tech > >> >> incubator...  what happened to it? >  Which > >> >> political agents currently > >> >> support technology development in the > valley?  what do > >> >> they think > >> >> about your org?  these things are pretty > basic... > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > 3. What political support is needed? >  You mean > >> >> government funding of > >> >> > events or startups or just verbal > support or what? > >> >> > >> >>   I wouldn't expect funding, but it > would be good to > >> >> see some > >> >> political buy in.  Lack of just supports > my opinions, > >> >> that its really > >> >> as Lisa said, camouflage for poor > organization. > >> >> Without any good > >> >> signposts, all this will produce are > people who get jaded > >> >> and > >> >> disaffected with regards to this > location.  If you had > >> >> something > >> >> together I doubt that a good politician > would turn you > >> >> down. > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > 4. Why is it wrong or a problem for > someone who is > >> >> laid-off to have > >> >> > grand ideas, talk about them and > they never come to > >> >> be? > >> >> > >> >>   Its not.  As I said, I don't find any > of these > >> >> things highly > >> >> offensive- but like you I am free to > express myself. > >> >> Sorry if its not > >> >> filled with abundant exaltations. > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > 5. Is it not conceivable that people > might help each > >> >> other in business > >> >> > efforts?  Isn't strengthening and > creating such a > >> >> culture a good idea > >> >> > or should such a goal not be pursued > because it is not > >> >> practically > >> >> > possible? > >> >> > >> >>   sure.  good thread btw.  -jmz > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > Alan > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:20 PM, > Joshua Zeidner > >> >> wrote: > >> >> >> another great one: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> "OK, my question stands. Where > are the incubators, > >> >> the "bootstrap" > >> >> >> seminars, the serious > entrepreneurial meetups in > >> >> Phoenix??? (crickets > >> >> >> chirping). Phoenix just ain't > happening as a > >> >> serious place where > >> >> >> serious people are doing serious > things. No one > >> >> wants it badly enough > >> >> >> here. This paper should be > having at least one > >> >> article a week on a new > >> >> >> startup and the VC firm who > funded it. > >> >> Helloooo????? is anybody out > >> >> >> there...." > >> >> >> > >> >> >> a better way to phrase this: we > need to stop > >> >> pretending these > >> >> >> whimsical efforts churned out by > local > >> >> self-employed marketing experts > >> >> >> are sufficient.  They are not. >  We should be > >> >> asking the hard > >> >> >> questions, not playing games. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> -jmz > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:04 PM, > Joshua > >> >> Zeidner > >> >> wrote: > >> >> >>>  another point, honestly > reading through some > >> >> of the criticisms on > >> >> >>> azcentral and being of the > cafe dwelling creed > >> >> myself, I'd have to say > >> >> >>> that many of those points > are accurate.  I've > >> >> heard lots of > >> >> >>> 'entrepreneurs' with big > ideas around here who > >> >> never get anywhere with > >> >> >>> them.  Sorry, but a word > press template > >> >> doesn't make you an > >> >> >>> entrepreneur. > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>  "These are the same people > you see at > >> >> Starbucks, Boarders or any > >> >> >>> other wi-fi hot spot, they > are not > >> >> entrepreneurs they are attention > >> >> >>> (inappropriate term)." > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>  "Many of the Co-Worker > location founders > >> >> tout other people to > >> >> >>> collaborate with and who can > "compensate for > >> >> your deficiencies". Do > >> >> >>> you really believe someone > that you are not > >> >> paying as an employee is > >> >> >>> going to somehow compensate > for your > >> >> deficiencies and make your > >> >> >>> business better? That kind > of help doesn't > >> >> come without a price." > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>  oh so true... > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>  "You are more likely to > get a bunch of > >> >> people chatting to you over > >> >> >>> your "work" so you wont be > concentrating as > >> >> you should to focus on > >> >> >>> your business. Most of these > people started > >> >> businesses after being > >> >> >>> laid off. They are searching > for a new job and > >> >> they aren't really > >> >> >>> serious about their > "businesses" so how do you > >> >> expect them to give you > >> >> >>> valuable, serious advice. > Are these the kind > >> >> of people you need to > >> >> >>> compensate for your > deficiencies? A bunch of > >> >> people half-as running > >> >> >>> their "business" while > searching for a real > >> >> job and bothering you with > >> >> >>> their expertise that got > them laid off in the > >> >> first place." > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>  oh so so true... > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>  I would be willing to bet > the commenter > >> >> above is an tried and true > >> >> >>> successful entrepreneur. >  Perhaps the reason > >> >> I am so skeptical is > >> >> >>> because I know these kind of > people so well. > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>  sorry I really wish I > could be more > >> >> supportive... but :  truth is > >> >> >>> the foundation of progress. > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>  -jmz > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:28 > PM, Joshua > >> >> Zeidner > >> >> wrote: > >> >> >>>>  Alan, > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>>    Wish I had time to > respond to all > >> >> these points right now, not sure > >> >> >>>> you read me the way I > would prefer > >> >> however.  Its not so grave a > >> >> >>>> warning, just getting > the word out on my > >> >> first hand experiences.  Im > >> >> >>>> just one of many- but > hopefully an > >> >> impartial observer and someone > >> >> >>>> genuinely concerned for > AZ. > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>>  all the best, jmz > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at > 3:12 PM, Alan > >> >> Dayley > >> >> wrote: > >> >> >>>>> Josh, > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> I feel warned.  And > I don't > >> >> understand the reason for such a strong > warning. > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> There are people in > every industry, > >> >> government or community who wish > >> >> >>>>> to fleece their > "community" for their > >> >> own profit instead of mutual > >> >> >>>>> benefit.  The trick > is to find the > >> >> positive people and ignore the > >> >> >>>>> rest.  Apply the > same filter with > >> >> every event, group or blogger in the > >> >> >>>>> lists and links I > provided.  I don't > >> >> expect bloggers or techies to be > >> >> >>>>> any different, as if > being techie > >> >> makes one a saint. > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> Some of those > bloggers are purely > >> >> commercial or completely neglected, > >> >> >>>>> I'm sure.  Some of > the groups or > >> >> events or sites listed are lousy, > >> >> >>>>> boring or poor > marketing excuses to > >> >> sell something.  Some are not out > >> >> >>>>> to create community > but to build a > >> >> "kingdom" for their own benefit. > >> >> >>>>> They are the duds. > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> Let's look at a few > positives: > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> - Read the Gangplank > Manifesto on > >> >> their home page at > >> >> >>>>> http://gangplankhq.com.  That looks like > >> >> a great articulation of their > >> >> >>>>> goals and purpose. >  Ones I strongly > >> >> support! > >> >> >>>>> -- Read how the > manifesto came to be > >> >> on Derek's blog at > >> >> >>>>> http://derekneighbors.com/2009/07/collaborative-writing-or-how-the-gangplank-manifesto-was-written/ > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> - Gangplank has > hosted or is hosting: > >> >> >>>>> -- MobiFest - a day > long conference on > >> >> developing for phones like > >> >> >>>>> iPhone or Android > >> >> >>>>> -- Gangplank Jr. - a > 2-3 hour Saturday > >> >> event for kids 5-15 to learn > >> >> >>>>> programming > concepts > >> >> >>>>> -- Wordpress > training classes for > >> >> minimal cost or no-cost for non-profit > orgs > >> >> >>>>> -- Laid Off Camp - a > day long > >> >> conference on job searching and > entreprenuership > >> >> >>>>> -- Barcamp Pheonix - > a day long > >> >> conference on software development > >> >> >>>>> -- TEDx night - > Watch ted.com videos > >> >> and discuss them > >> >> >>>>> -- OpenPhoenix - a > night of open mic > >> >> music and entertainment > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> - The last http://desertcodecamp.com/ was held on June 13th and > >> >> nearly > >> >> >>>>> filled DeVry's > Phoenix campus with > >> >> developers talking about code or > >> >> >>>>> making code.  Free > lunch of pizza and > >> >> sub sandwiches was provided too. > >> >> >>>>>  Put together by > volunteers. > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> - If you're into > Microsoft based > >> >> development tech, the people who > >> >> >>>>> maintain the http://azgroups.com site do an annual all-day event at > >> >> >>>>> venues like the > Orphium Theater and at > >> >> no cost to attendees.  Fine, > >> >> >>>>> it's marketing for > MS but it's put on > >> >> by volunteers here in the valley > >> >> >>>>> and a great way for > people to learn > >> >> about things that improve their > >> >> >>>>> career skills. > >> >> >>>>> (http://www.componentart.com/BLOGS/milos/archive/2009/06/02/scott-guthrie-event-2009-phoenix-az.aspx) > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> - The local Ruby On > Rails group has > >> >> monthly meetings with around 30 > >> >> >>>>> regularly in > attendance. > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> - The Java group is > also well attended > >> >> every month. > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> - The third http://podcampaz.com/ is coming up in November, put on > >> >> by > >> >> >>>>> voluteers at no cost > (donation > >> >> requested) to attendees.  Had about 350 > >> >> >>>>> people attend last > year (if I recall) > >> >> for two days of conference. > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> - The http://azentrepreneurship.com/ conference will be in > >> >> November > >> >> >>>>> for the forth year. >  This one costs > >> >> $100+ but should be as well > >> >> >>>>> attended as last > year with 200+ > >> >> people.  Funded and organized in part > >> >> >>>>> by a local venture > capital group. > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> - The first http://ignitephoenix.com event was held a year ago > with > >> >> a > >> >> >>>>> little over 100 in > attendance and has > >> >> grown to fill the 600 seat > >> >> >>>>> Theather at Tempe > Center for the Arts > >> >> back in June.  The connections > >> >> >>>>> made there live well > past the event. > >> >> >>>>> -- Oh, a city > council member and the > >> >> mayor of Tempe spoke this last > >> >> >>>>> time, though he was > a bit silly trying > >> >> to be Tempe exclusive.  That > >> >> >>>>> seems to be at least > verbal political > >> >> support. > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> - The second > ABLEConf on FS/OSS is > >> >> being planned for October and > >> >> >>>>> should be better > than last year. (Go > >> >> Hans and team!) > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> I'm not going to go > on, though I could > >> >> point out several purely social > >> >> >>>>> events like http://phoenixfridaynights.com/, it's east and west > >> >> valley > >> >> >>>>> analogs, East Valley > Thursday Morning > >> >> breakfasts, Tempe Geeks Lunch, > >> >> >>>>> South Valley Geek > Meet and Eat and > >> >> Gangplank's Brown Gag lunch > >> >> >>>>> presentations every > Wednesday. > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> Now, having said all > of that "giddy > >> >> blind optimism," I'd like to > >> >> >>>>> understand how the > above does not > >> >> address the efforts of the past or > >> >> >>>>> provide improvement > over past efforts. > >> >>  What are the real needs of the > >> >> >>>>> community, if not > some of the above? > >> >>  What would you suggest?  How can > >> >> >>>>> PLUG be a part of > it? > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> Alan > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 > at 1:34 PM, > >> >> Joshua Zeidner > >> >> wrote: > >> >> >>>>>>  Alan, > >> >> >>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>>    while I > appreciate your post, > >> >> and anyone who is making a sincere > >> >> >>>>>> effort to build > community in > >> >> Phoenix... be warned.  There are some > >> >> >>>>>> small groups who > periodically > >> >> spawn off new 'communities' every month > >> >> >>>>>> or so.  Look > closely and you see > >> >> the same few people with reused > >> >> >>>>>> marketing > recipes.  Lots of blog > >> >> and not too much community I'm > >> >> >>>>>> afraid.  Their > efforts amount to > >> >> some simple branding and putting up a > >> >> >>>>>> blog.  While > these things are not > >> >> really particularily offensive to > >> >> >>>>>> me, they do > somewhat detract from > >> >> interest in the real needs of the > >> >> >>>>>> community here. >  Some of these > >> >> people are just outright idiotic and > >> >> >>>>>> cannot deal with > existing > >> >> structure and refuse to accept the > history > >> >> >>>>>> of efforts in > the past.  They > >> >> lack any articulation of their goals and > >> >> >>>>>> purpose.  Often > times they have > >> >> trouble organizing even small groups > >> >> >>>>>> of 2 or 3. >  Dont forget we've had > >> >> a tech incubator here.  Lets not > >> >> >>>>>> smack down > sincere criticism in > >> >> favor of giddy blind optimism, > >> >> >>>>>> remember you > can't improve without > >> >> criticism.  I would take these > >> >> >>>>>> people much more > seriously if they > >> >> addressed the efforts of the past > >> >> >>>>>> and perhaps > suggested how they are > >> >> going to improve on them, or > >> >> >>>>>> perhaps indicate > what has changed > >> >> that will make them a success. > >> >> >>>>>> Maybe seeking > real political > >> >> support would gain some legitimacy. > >> >> >>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>>    on the > positive side, I think > >> >> Phoenix will attract a lot of > >> >> >>>>>> technology > business due to its > >> >> relative low cost and no doubt you will > >> >> >>>>>> start to see > community > >> >> infrastructure grow.  We are seeing some > real > >> >> >>>>>> urban > development happening in Phx > >> >> metro which has me very excited.  I > >> >> >>>>>> think when the > macroeconomic > >> >> problems are sorted out we will see > >> >> >>>>>> downtown Phx > bloom.  Im hoping > >> >> that the average Arizonan gets involved > >> >> >>>>>> in the political > process and make > >> >> sure that the corruption stays out > >> >> >>>>>> of city and > state politics. > >> >>  Coming from NY, Im recognizing a lot > of > >> >> >>>>>> positive > development trends in Phx > >> >> metro. > >> >> >>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>>  -jmz > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> > --------------------------------------------------- > >> >> >>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing > list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > >> >> >>>>> To subscribe, > unsubscribe, or to > >> >> change your mail settings: > >> >> >>>>> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >> > >> >> > --------------------------------------------------- > >> >> >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > >> >> >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to > change your mail > >> >> settings: > >> >> >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >> >> >> > >> >> > > --------------------------------------------------- > >> >> > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > >> >> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to > change your mail > >> >> settings: > >> >> > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >> >> > > >> >> > --------------------------------------------------- > >> >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > >> >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change > your mail > >> >> settings: > >> >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > --------------------------------------------------- > >> > PLUG-discuss mailing list - 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