There is a difference between flame, disagreement, discussion and love.
Only flame is outside of a community and disagreement is not always
unproductive.
I did not see any of the below as a flame. Discussion, surely and
disagreement, perhaps, but no flames.
Alan
Tuna wrote:
> Why must we flame? Where is the love? The community?
>
> Joshua Zeidner wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 8/29/07, *Alan Dayley* <alandd@consultpros.com
>> <mailto:alandd@consultpros.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Joshua Zeidner wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > On 8/29/07, *keith smith* <klsmith2020@yahoo.com
>> <mailto:klsmith2020@yahoo.com>
>> > <mailto:klsmith2020@yahoo.com <mailto:klsmith2020@yahoo.com> >>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Add PLUG reserves the right to suspend or remove any account
>> not in
>> > compliance.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > And for my reference, WHO is PLUG?
>>
>> Straight to the point. WE are PLUG.
>>
>> There is a Steering Committee with a chair person but, they direct
>> the
>> group in a "benevolent dictator" style, sort of... The committee
>> does
>> makes sure stuff happens but has no real force of control. There
>> are no
>> by-laws or hard rules for the committee to lean on or point at. PLUG
>> members follow or don't or grumble or yell as they see fit.
>>
>> So, your point is taken. If anyone is reserving the right to ban
>> someone, who has that right and what are the criteria? I don't know
>> the
>> answer to that question.
>>
>>
>>
>> Honestly, I've been through this with one group already here in
>> Phoenix. Usually if something happens someone doesn't like, they
>> evoke the hidden and mysterious powers of moderation. Behind this
>> somewhat ridiculous fig-leaf is some callow sheepish dude who has the
>> password to the listserv. Very funny stuff in my view.
>>
>> I can say this: without clear leadership, there will be no clear
>> purpose. If the person who recently offered up his grandfatherly
>> opinion of the whole thing feels he is in the position of leadership
>> here, he should make that abundantly clear. Not because I am
>> challenging that leadership, I would just like to know who is running
>> the show if anyone.
>>
>> I am in touch with Jason and I want to make it clear that it was not
>> my intention to smear him. I do not make any claims against his
>> character. He has made job postings on here after our work engagement
>> and I made no attempt to interfere with that. I asked for a simple
>> thing, and my intention here was to help clear up some confusion. I
>> will make a sincere attempt to reconcile our disputes.
>>
>> In a general, I have recently moved out of Phoenix, primarily
>> because I found the work environment here quite lacking. I could tell
>> you quite a number of stories of my experiences around here[1], but
>> there is a sufficient trail of listserv activity to point to some of
>> my experiences. I think that Phoenix is currently facing some serious
>> challenges as a city... and there are going to be inevitable changes
>> whether they are welcomed by old-timers or not. I am quite sure that
>> recent activity in financial markets has hit a number of people on
>> this list directly.
>>
>> To address Joseph S.'s comments, for a list or a business venue to
>> function correctly, you have to support buyers AND sellers, employers
>> AND employees. I know that a number of regular contributors are of
>> the hobbyist temperament, and see these kinds of points to be
>> irrelevant and annoying. Banning feedback on job ads may seem like a
>> great way to attract employers, because they feel safer in making
>> whatever claims they please. The problem is, that the actual value of
>> the ads degrade, and developers start to take a somewhat non-committal
>> attitude towards working with these parties[3]. What phoenix
>> currently needs is some kind of reputable venue for IT contracting,
>> and I've voiced these concerns before[2]. Silicon Valley (where I
>> currently reside) is literally bulging at the seams with
>> out-of-control cost scales and somewhat of a vacuum of lucrative
>> ideas. There are people here who make $300K a year designing
>> applications to scrape your address book from your gmail account.
>> Phoenix /does/ have potential in that sense, but it lacks the legal
>> and commercial infrastructure to support the kind of commercial
>> activity found in Silicon Valley. This infrastructure was built by
>> folks not unlike yourselves, who just have a basic fascination with
>> technology and its possibilities and decided make the government work
>> for them instead of against them.
>>
>> Alan, I appreciate your attitude here- I think you are looking out
>> for whats best for all the participants here. thanks. jmz
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [1] there is one person on this list that I responded to a job ad, and
>> his 'CTO' refused to give me his last name! this person later was
>> recommended by someone else on this list!
>>
>> [2] there are key deficiencies in AZ law as compared to that of CA
>> law. some of the more important aspects are employment law and NCAs.
>>
>> [3] 'no flakes' is perhaps the most common request in web development
>> job postings.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Better yet, I don't want to need to know the answer to that question.
>>
>> In the history of PLUG that I know, no one has ever been banned.
>> Ever.
>> I'd much rather continue as it has all these years. Self policing
>> works and this group is very good at it.
>>
>> I, for one, would not want the power to ban anyone.
>>
>> Alan
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> .0000. communication.
>> .0001. development.
>> .0010. strategy. .0100. appeal.
>>
>> JOSHUA M. ZEIDNER
>> IT Consultant
>>
>> ( 602 ) 490 8006
>> jjzeidner@gmail.com <mailto:jjzeidner@gmail.com>
>>
>>
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