Good point. Back on topic then. TSMC isn't a sweatshop. Taiwan has a
different culture than we do and the corporate culture of TSMC is kinda
half and half between US and Taiwan (say what you want about H1Bs, but when
most of your decision makers are trained in the US, it has a
cultural impact). Very top-down, knowledge-driven, and an expectation of
unpaid overtime. How much of this culture will reach into the AZ fabs,
we'll have to see. Our labor laws are a bit better. If you get in there
early, maybe you could have an impact on the culture they adopt!
On Thu, Jun 8, 2023 at 4:52 AM David Schwartz via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
> I can always tell when discussions have gone off into the weeds when the
> topic switches to assigning blame for things whose outcomes are entirely
> predictable over time.
>
> -David Schwartz
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 7, 2023, at 6:42 PM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
> Who's to blame indeed... We are - our political class.
>
>
> On 2023-06-07 18:25, Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>
> QUESTION?
> I understand TSMC produces the most chips in the world, and is
>
> located
>
> in Taiwan . Where did they get that technology and who paid for
>
> that
> > technology?
> Being old enough to be there and experience the start of
> mass-production of copy/duplicate/counterfeit goods in the late 70's
> and 80's, I'd say it all started with "Made in Taiwan" goods.
> From my perspective from childhood on, it was in the form of knock-off
> toys, brand name fashions, CD's, tools, you name it, it was everywhere
> new and used, and it was all "Made in Taiwan". Not sure if it was them
> simply getting the impetus to clone our stuff, or someone
> surreptitiously asking them to do so to undercut established brands
> from here. Either way, it set off the flood into our domestic markets
> for crapgadgets.
> Taiwan goods were always just a bit crappier, sort of mislabled, would
> always break early if not out of box, would never fit quite right, but
> hey it was a fraction of the price! In my teens my focus was tools
> growing up to be a mechanic, and buying second-hand goods would always
> see a direct clone of a $100 "Snap-On" brand high-end wrench as a $5
> "Stack-On" clone from Taiwan. Harbor Freight made a name and business
> selling knock-off American "Chicago Pneumatic" tools as "Central
> Pneumatic" (many others too), all Made in Taiwan (now China), and
> still does.
> In the 80's, US orgs began asking Taiwan to actually make these things
> for us including eventually semiconductors for us, even giving them
> the plans, when they already had the clone game down pimp tight.
> That's about the time China took over and now frowns upon mentioning
> Taiwan as anything other than China, thus generically everything is
> "Made in China" since then.
> As we sent our engineering designs there to get bargains in
> production, and taught them how to make our things including the
> machinery. Eventually those copies as part of reverse engineering
> became prototypes, continued to be made and improved on, if not in
> quality, in profit margins to make them cheaper, even eventually
> adapting into new products. As it was always explained to me, it
> starts with them making "one for me, then one for themselves", and
> later "one for me, two for themselves", ad nauseam.
> Next thing you know you have Coach purses rolling out of the same
> factory as the Couch purses that look the same sold in swap meets and
> alleyways around the world, barely indistinguishable except the
> receipt. Even worse now, you get things like selling counterfeit
> Cisco switches to everything from government to education [1] using
> modchips to bypass security on the clone [2], or buying pretty much
> anything of Amazon is likely a counterfeit clone of a clone of a
> clone.
> Who's to blame indeed...
> -mb
> On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 3:29 PM Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss
> <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
> On 2023-06-07 13:59, James Mcphee via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>
> Generally, if I hear it from cable news, there's a good chance
>
> it's
>
> just someone drumming up support for something. In this case,
>
> we'll
>
> probably hear about some kind of H1B system to make sure the new
>
> fabs
>
> get all the people they need, etc. Same deal as when I was
>
> working at
>
> a company that got bought by Dell, and they failed to retain most
>
> of
>
> the new employees because they didn't have a structure that worked
> with professionals. Suddenly you saw Michael Dell doing an
>
> interview
>
> on CNBC about the need to extend H1B 'cause they aren't getting
>
> enough
>
> workers. At the very least, there's plenty of incentive to drive
>
> down
>
> labor costs. And with the halts for new housing going out, there
>
> is a
>
> LOT of incentive to manipulate the market.
> Am I being paranoid? I probably need to touch more grass.
>
> Are you getting too paranoid? Maybe not. I quit following the news
> because I think most are fearmongering and not talking and working
> on
> the real problems.
> I personally do not like the H1B visas because I do not think they
> are
> necessary. If there is really a shortage of tech workers then why is
> there not a few major tech universities? Why does Gates exploit the
> H1B
> and not create a really great tech university? And why do the
> politicians allow all of this?
> We have all we need right here in our 50 states, so why do we not do
> things that benefit ourselves and possibly others?
> These people like Michael Dell, Bill Gates, etc have forgotten where
> they came from.
> QUESTION?
> I understand TSMC produces the most chips in the world, and is
> located
> in Taiwan . Where did they get that technology and who paid for
> that
> technology?
>
> On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 1:15 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss
> <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
> Don't believe everything you read on the internet. I've read
>
> that
>
> Abraham Lincoln blames Donald Trump for giving the gun to John
> Wilkes Booth.
> On 6/6/23 17:45, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>
> Chip maker TSMC is moving to chandler and I have read they are a
> sweatshop....
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> --
> James McPhee
> jmcphe@gmail.com
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> Links:
> ------
> [1]
> https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/ceo-guilty-of-selling-counterfeit-cisco-devices-to-military-govt-orgs/
> [2]
> https://hackaday.com/2023/02/01/counterfeit-cisco-hardware-bypasses-security-checks-with-modchips/
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--
James McPhee
jmcphe@gmail.com
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