I can always tell when discussions have gone off into the weeds when the topic switches to assigning blame for things whose outcomes are entirely predictable over time.
-David Schwartz
> On Jun 7, 2023, at 6:42 PM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
> Who's to blame indeed... We are - our political class.
>
>
> On 2023-06-07 18:25, Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>>> QUESTION?
>>> I understand TSMC produces the most chips in the world, and is
>> located
>>> in Taiwan . Where did they get that technology and who paid for
>> that
>> > technology?
>> Being old enough to be there and experience the start of
>> mass-production of copy/duplicate/counterfeit goods in the late 70's
>> and 80's, I'd say it all started with "Made in Taiwan" goods.
>> From my perspective from childhood on, it was in the form of knock-off
>> toys, brand name fashions, CD's, tools, you name it, it was everywhere
>> new and used, and it was all "Made in Taiwan". Not sure if it was them
>> simply getting the impetus to clone our stuff, or someone
>> surreptitiously asking them to do so to undercut established brands
>> from here. Either way, it set off the flood into our domestic markets
>> for crapgadgets.
>> Taiwan goods were always just a bit crappier, sort of mislabled, would
>> always break early if not out of box, would never fit quite right, but
>> hey it was a fraction of the price! In my teens my focus was tools
>> growing up to be a mechanic, and buying second-hand goods would always
>> see a direct clone of a $100 "Snap-On" brand high-end wrench as a $5
>> "Stack-On" clone from Taiwan. Harbor Freight made a name and business
>> selling knock-off American "Chicago Pneumatic" tools as "Central
>> Pneumatic" (many others too), all Made in Taiwan (now China), and
>> still does.
>> In the 80's, US orgs began asking Taiwan to actually make these things
>> for us including eventually semiconductors for us, even giving them
>> the plans, when they already had the clone game down pimp tight.
>> That's about the time China took over and now frowns upon mentioning
>> Taiwan as anything other than China, thus generically everything is
>> "Made in China" since then.
>> As we sent our engineering designs there to get bargains in
>> production, and taught them how to make our things including the
>> machinery. Eventually those copies as part of reverse engineering
>> became prototypes, continued to be made and improved on, if not in
>> quality, in profit margins to make them cheaper, even eventually
>> adapting into new products. As it was always explained to me, it
>> starts with them making "one for me, then one for themselves", and
>> later "one for me, two for themselves", ad nauseam.
>> Next thing you know you have Coach purses rolling out of the same
>> factory as the Couch purses that look the same sold in swap meets and
>> alleyways around the world, barely indistinguishable except the
>> receipt. Even worse now, you get things like selling counterfeit
>> Cisco switches to everything from government to education [1] using
>> modchips to bypass security on the clone [2], or buying pretty much
>> anything of Amazon is likely a counterfeit clone of a clone of a
>> clone.
>> Who's to blame indeed...
>> -mb
>> On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 3:29 PM Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss
>> <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>> On 2023-06-07 13:59, James Mcphee via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>>>> Generally, if I hear it from cable news, there's a good chance
>>> it's
>>>> just someone drumming up support for something. In this case,
>>> we'll
>>>> probably hear about some kind of H1B system to make sure the new
>>> fabs
>>>> get all the people they need, etc. Same deal as when I was
>>> working at
>>>> a company that got bought by Dell, and they failed to retain most
>>> of
>>>> the new employees because they didn't have a structure that worked
>>>> with professionals. Suddenly you saw Michael Dell doing an
>>> interview
>>>> on CNBC about the need to extend H1B 'cause they aren't getting
>>> enough
>>>> workers. At the very least, there's plenty of incentive to drive
>>> down
>>>> labor costs. And with the halts for new housing going out, there
>>> is a
>>>> LOT of incentive to manipulate the market.
>>>> Am I being paranoid? I probably need to touch more grass.
>>> Are you getting too paranoid? Maybe not. I quit following the news
>>> because I think most are fearmongering and not talking and working
>>> on
>>> the real problems.
>>> I personally do not like the H1B visas because I do not think they
>>> are
>>> necessary. If there is really a shortage of tech workers then why is
>>> there not a few major tech universities? Why does Gates exploit the
>>> H1B
>>> and not create a really great tech university? And why do the
>>> politicians allow all of this?
>>> We have all we need right here in our 50 states, so why do we not do
>>> things that benefit ourselves and possibly others?
>>> These people like Michael Dell, Bill Gates, etc have forgotten where
>>> they came from.
>>> QUESTION?
>>> I understand TSMC produces the most chips in the world, and is
>>> located
>>> in Taiwan . Where did they get that technology and who paid for
>>> that
>>> technology?
>>>> On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 1:15 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss
>>>> <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>>>> Don't believe everything you read on the internet. I've read
>>> that
>>>>> Abraham Lincoln blames Donald Trump for giving the gun to John
>>>>> Wilkes Booth.
>>>>> On 6/6/23 17:45, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>>>>>> Chip maker TSMC is moving to chandler and I have read they are a
>>>>>> sweatshop....
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>>>> --
>>>> James McPhee
>>>> jmcphe@gmail.com
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>> Links:
>> ------
>> [1] https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/ceo-guilty-of-selling-counterfeit-cisco-devices-to-military-govt-orgs/ <https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/ceo-guilty-of-selling-counterfeit-cisco-devices-to-military-govt-orgs/>
>> [2] https://hackaday.com/2023/02/01/counterfeit-cisco-hardware-bypasses-security-checks-with-modchips/ <https://hackaday.com/2023/02/01/counterfeit-cisco-hardware-bypasses-security-checks-with-modchips/>
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