On Mon, 2011-05-23 at 21:50 -0700, der.hans wrote:
> Am 23. May, 2011 schwätzte Ted Gould so:
> > On Sun, 2011-05-22 at 22:25 -0700, Dennis Kibbe wrote:
> > I think that this is a problem that the "Linux Desktop" has in general.
> > Too many people associate the term "Linux" with servers and think that
> > it can only exist there. That means we'll never win in the consumer
> > space. Perhaps that's why it's not "Android Linux" :-)
>
> I think the problem is that people still associate Linux with hard to
> install and use. Android is doing well because it comes pre-installed
> with support and it works.
>
> We need companies bigger than ZAReason and System76 to sell computers
> with GNU/Linux pre-installed and using good Free Software drivers. We
> can pre-install GIMP, Inkscape, Blender, LibreOffice and lots of other
> functionality for free. If selling pre-installed on supported hardware we
> have the advantage. Maybe that's how tablets will succeed since that's
> what they're doing. If so, Android has significant advantage over Ubuntu
> right now. That's sad because Android doesn't seem to be much concerned
> about using proprietary software, especially from the repo.
How about Dell, HP and Lenovo? ;-)
http://www.ubuntu.com/certification/
I do think that preinstall is a key there, but if people get scared away
because it is "common knowledge" that Linux is difficult and requires
use of the command line even the preinstall market will be hampered.
Honestly (and I know we're probably going to have to agree to disagree
here) I think that we also need a bunch of proprietary software to make
the transition as well. People need to have Photoshop for a "safe
landing" on their new OS then we show them how cool GIMP is too. I
don't think that requiring a "flag day" for people to switch will ever
create good results.
> > On Sun, 2011-05-22 at 21:43 -0700, der.hans wrote:
> >> While I understand what you're saying, I disagree. Yes, basic GNU/Linux
> >> desktop usage should not require use of the command line. Classes,
> >> however, should at least give a basic introduction, especially in regards
> >> to taking advice from the Internet that involves sudo, su or root :). A
> >> class is a great place to demystify the command line for those unfamiliar
> >> with it.
> >
> > While I'll accept other reasons, this one I won't -- lazy tutorial
> > writers and blog authors shouldn't be a reason to teach people overly
>
> I didn't mention or intend blogs, howtos, etc. I meant forums, chat rooms
> and other social media.
>
> ###
> somenick> Oh, I know how to fix that, hit <alt>-<f2> and type xterm.
> you'll get a new window, type "sudo $somedestructivecommand" and that'll
> fix your problem
> ###
>
> Even worse if they go straight for gksudo.
>
> My experience is that those who wouldn't use the command line also won't
> be searching for solutions in order to find pages that recommend using the
> command line. Maybe I just know too many anti-technology people.
They come up in Google surprisingly quickly. And old data too. That's
one of the things that I love about AskUbuntu, the content gets pushed
around and bumped up over time. Plus people can come with better
answers and more easily see the command line ones that exist.
http://askubuntu.com
You can even search it inside Unity as a quick help solution:
http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/03/unity-askubuntu-lens-installable-via-ppa/
In general, we need to discourage these command line helpers in social
media too :-)
> Any desktop class ( or intro to an operating system class ) for any
> operating system should also be teaching people not to just download crap
> from anywhere. Again, we have the advantage. The distributions have great
> repositories that are mostly secure and have lots of great software.
For sure, or we'll have similar virus/malware problems to Windows in no
time :-(
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2008-March/003639.html
> > complex techniques. And, effectively, continue a mythology that you can
> > only use Linux if you're a techie or able to use the command line well.
> > As Linux enthusiasts we need to all work to rid the Internet of these
> > instructions. I tried to convince a couple of folks at Google that they
> > shouldn't index anything with the string "sudo" in it; I haven't been
> > successful... yet...
>
> Sounds like you started working for Red Hat and have joined the anti-sudo
> crowd :).
>
> Having command line based stuff out there is still a good thing. Even
> if the vast majority of the population doesn't want to fix
> their car/plumbing/electrical/computer/etc that doesn't mean
> schematics/directions/etc should be hard to find. Please don't propose
> taking resources away from me just because someone else finds them ugly.
Well, full disclosure, I've already proposed removing sudo from the
default Ubuntu install :-) No, and not adding back a root user. Just
removing it. It'd still be available in the repositories to install via
software center, just not by default. (obviously server would be
different)
> I agree with you that general desktop use shouldn't require knowing the
> command line the same way I think driving a car shouldn't require knowing
> how to check the fuses or change the oil. Just as knowing about the fuses
> and the oil and why it's important to maintain them is good it's also good
> to know the command line is there and have a basic understanding of it.
Sure, as long as we can take this analogy far enough to say that 90% of
people in the world don't need to know what a fuse is :-)
> Ubuntu has done a good job of removing requirements to use command line (
> even though command line tools are usually better ). For the most part
> this has been done without borking command line tools, which is equally
> important.
+1
> >> Happily for you they specifically require GNOME knowledge :).
> >
> > They'll need to upgrade that to Unity knowledge ;-)
>
> Actually, no. It'll need to stay GNOME and KDE because we're intentionally
> somewhat distro neutral. Unity probably just means we should use Kubuntu
> and use GNOME on CentOS.
>
> The other college is a Red Hat academy, so they especially don't care
> about Unity :).
The assumption you're making here is that "Unity == Ubuntu" which really
isn't the case, or at least not how I view it. There's Unity packaging
efforts on other distros, though they've been mostly hampered by the
number of vendor patches we had to make on other packages (we're looking
to fix that).
We've got a little while until the next RHEL release, but I hope by then
we're at a point where we can convince them to use Unity ;-)
> Personally, Harmony has convinced me to move back to Debian, so I haven't
> even investigated what Unity is.
Not sure what Harmony has to do with distro choice, but I'm totally
happy with what ever distro makes you happy :-)
--Ted
---------------------------------------------------
PLUG-discuss mailing list -
PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
(text/plain)
