Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in PHX

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Author: keith smith
Date:  
To: Main PLUG discussion list
Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in PHX

So why would you want to continue down this same path?

------------------------
Keith Smith


--- On Sun, 8/2/09, Joshua Zeidner <> wrote:

> From: Joshua Zeidner <>
> Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in PHX
> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" <>
> Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 2:58 PM
> On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 2:51 PM, keith
> smith<>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I think anytime government gets involved in anything
> it is bad.  If the government is going to be in charge of
> giving grants to business development groups only the
> friends of government will get the grants.
>
>   the friends of govt are getting the grants right
> now.  believe me,
> I've been at the State Senate.  It's a zoo. 
> We're about to make the
> biggest financial decision AZ has made in decades. -jmz
>
> >
> >
> > We agree on one thing.  Accurate reporting is needed.
>  That is what is missing.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------
> > Keith Smith
> >
> >
> > --- On Sun, 8/2/09, Joshua Zeidner <>
> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Joshua Zeidner <>
> >> Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in
> PHX
> >> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" <>
> >> Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 2:41 PM
> >> On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 2:21 PM, keith
> >> smith<>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > With the exception of labor law violations
> what you
> >> have outlined has to do with business practices.
> >> >
> >> > How can government improve these problems?
> >>
> >>   I think that the technology development people
> need
> >> clear
> >> representation in state govt.  You certainly have
> this
> >> in CA, and the
> >> political support is funneled through
> professional
> >> orgs.  As was
> >> pointed out the professional orgs are somewhat
> lacking
> >> here- perhaps
> >> this warrants a closer look.  Perhaps we need to
> take
> >> a look at who it
> >> is that runs them.  In my view the only way to
> make a
> >> durable org is
> >> direct support by state or city govt.  Economic
> >> development in AZ is
> >> typically modeled as low cost industrial
> investment + cheap
> >> labor =
> >> $$$$!  Im not suggesting doing away with it, but
> it
> >> has expanded
> >> enough to antagonize other kinds of development. 
> I
> >> dont think cheap
> >> labor should come at the cost of University. 
> This is
> >> the 21st
> >> century- cast iron widgets are becoming cheaper
> and
> >> cheaper.
> >>
> >>   Again just to clarify, I have nothing against
> >> Gangplank.  But we
> >> have to be accurate when we talk about it.  It's
> not
> >> the Kleiner
> >> Perkins of Arizona.  If we allow that perception
> to
> >> persist, AZ will
> >> gain a reputation as a fraud.  Secondly I would
> >> appreciate it if some
> >> of the protagonists of these groups were a bit
> clearer
> >> about their
> >> identity.  Some of these groups conjure up images
> of
> >> those cheapo
> >> chinese buffets that change their names every few
> months.
> >>
> >>   Keith I dont have a business plan... but we
> need to
> >> start by
> >> accurately reporting on the state of things. 
> Then we
> >> can make the
> >> right decisions.
> >>
> >>   -jmz
> >>
> >> >
> >> > ------------------------
> >> > Keith Smith
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Michael Butash <>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> From: Michael Butash <>
> >> >> Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff
> to do in
> >> PHX
> >> >> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" <>
> >> >> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 10:31 PM
> >> >> Well, largely I agree with Joshua's
> >> >> assessment, sounds like his
> >> >> experience is much like mine...
> >> >>
> >> >> I moved to the Bay area in 99, worked
> tech there
> >> for 2
> >> >> years, moved back
> >> >> when things imploded in 01.  Since being
> back
> >> versed
> >> >> with tech skill and
> >> >> corporate politics, I've only ever been
> able to
> >> describe
> >> >> most business
> >> >> in Arizona as bass-ackward and/or
> hot-air
> >> propelled.
> >> >> Largely I note
> >> >> Arizona seems to encourage abuse of fair
> labor
> >> standards
> >> >> act for
> >> >> salaried employees, resulting in a lot
> of
> >> "sweatshop IT"
> >> >> mentality in
> >> >> corporations here.  Funny I heard
> mentioned
> >> godaddy
> >> >> and 2wire, as they
> >> >> tend to be some of the biggest offenders
> of
> >> running said
> >> >> sweat shops.
> >> >> Give your buddy 6 months at the Daddy to
> acclimate
> >> to them
> >> >> and ask what
> >> >> he thinks.  :)
> >> >>
> >> >> When I did move back to AZ, I'd joined
> some
> >> professional
> >> >> "networking"
> >> >> groups like AZIPA that led to not much
> more than
> >> pedantic
> >> >> bickering and
> >> >> posturing, not much at all helpful for
> business
> >> or
> >> >> technology
> >> >> opportunities.  Ultimately I saw it
> splinter,
> >> >> fracture, and a lot of
> >> >> people simply lose interest because of
> it,
> >> including
> >> >> myself.  From that
> >> >> I found being an island unto yourself
> isn't always
> >> a bad
> >> >> thing, simply
> >> >> networking with people I met through
> work.  Only
> >> >> recently have I
> >> >> somewhat opened up to professional
> networking
> >> though
> >> >> LinkedIn and user
> >> >> groups like this one, but really just to
> keep
> >> touch with
> >> >> associates and
> >> >> clients of mine.  I'm still gun shy on
> the
> >> rest...
> >> >>
> >> >> Since being back in AZ, I've worked for a
> lot of
> >> IT shops
> >> >> and been
> >> >> exposed to a lot of people shifting
> between jobs,
> >> finding
> >> >> that more or
> >> >> less most corporate politics surrounding
> IT are
> >> the same,
> >> >> and not
> >> >> typically good.  I worked 3 years at
> GoDaddy
> >> prior and
> >> >> through massive
> >> >> growth, while one of my best work
> experiences
> >> (building
> >> >> cool/expensive
> >> >> stuff), it was also one of the worst
> (meat
> >> grinder
> >> >> stressful workplace,
> >> >> implosive politics).  GD and frankly a
> lot of
> >> >> companies I've been
> >> >> exposed to are more alike than not,
> typically
> >> because of
> >> >> clueless upper
> >> >> management and general lack of ethics,
> but somehow
> >> forge
> >> >> along despite
> >> >> themselves.  Closest analogy I can
> equated it to
> >> >> universally is "the
> >> >> blind leading the blind", where
> self-serving
> >> politics,
> >> >> combined with
> >> >> poor technological leadership, and now
> volatile
> >> economics
> >> >> eventually
> >> >> dictate perspective reasoning of how
> things
> >> work.  Bad
> >> >> things tend to
> >> >> result, and often...
> >> >>
> >> >> The difference between working in the Bay
> Area and
> >> in
> >> >> Arizona is stark.
> >> >> Generally I found a lot better talent
> there, with
> >> a
> >> >> stronger likeliness
> >> >> to embrace technology, and be passionate
> about
> >> their
> >> >> work.  Here there's
> >> >> just a lot of people graduating DeVry,
> UoP, WIU,
> >> and other
> >> >> "schools"
> >> >> cranking out mediocre certified/degreed
> >> cannon-fodder for
> >> >> the local IT
> >> >> shops, trying to get paid by the IT dream
> job.
> >> It's
> >> >> almost scary
> >> >> walking into new customer businesses
> consulting
> >> anymore,
> >> >> pretty safe to
> >> >> assume someone knows nothing than
> anything about
> >> the tech
> >> >> they support.
> >> >> While I did have this too in the Bay
> Area, the
> >> clueless
> >> >> admin syndrome
> >> >> is a heck of a lot more prevalent here. 
> Work
> >> ethics
> >> >> tend to be crappier
> >> >> too.  I dunno, something in the water
> perhaps...
> >> >>
> >> >> Look around at the sheer number of call
> centers
> >> for
> >> >> businesses out of
> >> >> state we have here, and that should tell
> you
> >> >> something.  A lot of
> >> >> low-pay, mediocre jobs, and a career path
> to
> >> become a
> >> >> cattle herder of
> >> >> these call centers, maybe even move into
> middle
> >> management
> >> >> if you're
> >> >> lucky.  Businesses like GoDaddy, 2wire,
> CableOne,
> >> Cox,
> >> >> ETelecare, etc
> >> >> simply rotate people in and out like
> underwear,
> >> but they're
> >> >> the armpits
> >> >> that fund a lot of the IT business around
> town as
> >> well, as
> >> >> someone's got
> >> >> to support all the infrastructure to take
> those
> >> >> calls.  Godaddy's call
> >> >> centers are slightly different because
> they
> >> actually MAKE
> >> >> them money, so
> >> >> they tend to commission merit pay and
> lavish gifts
> >> readily
> >> >> upon them to
> >> >> keep everyone happy, but it's still at
> the root
> >> just
> >> >> another sweatshop
> >> >> call center.  Other call centers are
> much less
> >> >> forgiving...
> >> >>
> >> >> Supporting IT shops around call centers
> tends to
> >> be a
> >> >> double-edged
> >> >> sword, especially when the call center
> slave
> >> mentality
> >> >> pervades into the
> >> >> how companies deal with or even drive IT
> folk.
> >> Even
> >> >> non-call-centers
> >> >> seem to act this way locally more
> commonly than
> >> not, just
> >> >> because they
> >> >> can, and it's the atmosphere people are
> becoming
> >> acclimated
> >> >> to.  As
> >> >> people migrate jobs, I think ultimately
> this
> >> pervasive
> >> >> mentality results
> >> >> in excessive overwork and general
> dissatisfaction,
> >> causing
> >> >> a
> >> >> trickle-down effect into other work
> places.
> >> >>
> >> >> These
> disinterested/jaded/overworked/underpaid
> >> workers now
> >> >> head out into
> >> >> other IT shops to maintain infrastructure
> over
> >> their head
> >> >> and
> >> >> undermanned, meaning things degrade
> eventually
> >> even if once
> >> >> deployed
> >> >> properly.  I'm not at all certain if
> this is just
> >> a
> >> >> local thing, or the
> >> >> new national standard at work, but it
> seems much
> >> more
> >> >> pervasive here
> >> >> than certain other localities I work
> with.
> >> >> Professional ethics are hard
> >> >> to find these days in general with hard
> times
> >> indeed.
> >> >> Anyone else of
> >> >> hiring capacity notice try hiring *good*
> people
> >> these
> >> >> days?  Pretty
> >> >> difficult if you ask me.
> >> >>
> >> >> Overall, working in the tech field here
> for the
> >> past 8
> >> >> years in a more
> >> >> senior capacity, I'm often uncertain I
> want to
> >> remain in AZ
> >> >> long-term.
> >> >> As I get older, my flame to set upon the
> world
> >> diminishes,
> >> >> I'll probably
> >> >> just wander until I feel comfortable for
> a bit.
> >> I
> >> >> love AZ, but I'm
> >> >> fairly disparaged by the business
> opportunities
> >> here after
> >> >> all these
> >> >> years...
> >> >>
> >> >> So enough hot-air of my own, take it as
> you will,
> >> but
> >> >> that's my take on
> >> >> things.  Feel free to disagree.  :)
> >> >>
> >> >> Good discussion indeed, interesting to
> hear
> >> other's
> >> >> opinions on the
> >> >> matter.
> >> >>
> >> >> -mb
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Sat, 2009-08-01 at 19:08 -0700, Joshua
> Zeidner
> >> wrote:
> >> >> > On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 6:50 PM,
> keith
> >> smith<>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > I think what is really missing
> from this
> >> equation
> >> >> is mentoring and training.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >   what I would like to see is
> some real
> >> >> support from AZ government to
> >> >> > help make tech companies feel
> welcome here.
> >> This
> >> >> means:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >   1) making the valley a good
> place not
> >> >> only to build a company but to
> >> >> > build a *career*.  this means buy
> in from
> >> both
> >> >> sides of the equation.
> >> >> > I would like to see a bit more
> address at
> >> lower
> >> >> capital levels, but
> >> >> > that may prove to be difficult.  It
> seems
> >> that
> >> >> most existing concepts
> >> >> > are kind of stuck in the industrial
> model,
> >> where you
> >> >> build a factory
> >> >> > in a place with low taxes and hire
> low wage
> >> workers,
> >> >> but technology
> >> >> > requires high wage workers who
> demand a good
> >> thriving
> >> >> job market.  The
> >> >> > needs are quite different.  The
> biggest
> >> issue
> >> >> with starting a company
> >> >> > out here is finding people.  Where
> are all
> >> the
> >> >> people?  in CA.
> >> >> > because it has a good job market. 
> If we
> >> can
> >> >> outsource to India, we
> >> >> > sure as hell can outsource to
> Arizona.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >   2) setting up low cost legal
> >> >> structure and as you say mentoring to
> >> >> > really help stimulate technology
> >> development.
> >> >> We've seen (at least
> >> >> > nominal) efforts in the past.  Why
> did they
> >> >> fail?  This means real and
> >> >> > adequate assistance in bringing
> concepts to
> >> production
> >> >> and market.  A
> >> >> > small investment in this area will
> yield
> >> returns in
> >> >> tax base and
> >> >> > property value by a factor of
> hundreds.
> >> Arizona
> >> >> has the potential to
> >> >> > pick up a lot of this commercial
> activity
> >> because
> >> >> California is
> >> >> > currently set to become a tax
> strapped
> >> nightmare state
> >> >> to build your
> >> >> > business.  If AZ fails to see the
> >> opportunity
> >> >> here, we will lose out
> >> >> > big time.  Currently the budget
> proceedings
> >> are
> >> >> still in gridlock.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >   the mayor of Phoenix seems to
> have
> >> >> the right idea, he was suggesting
> >> >> > recently a green technology center
> near Phx
> >> >> center.  I think thats the
> >> >> > direction AZ needs to go.  -jmz
> >> >> >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > I like the idea that folks are
> getting
> >> together
> >> >> to network.  This is a really cool
> idea.  Even
> >> for
> >> >> non-technical stuff like finding out how
> people
> >> deal with
> >> >> customers, contracting, book-keeping,
> ETC.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > ------------------------
> >> >> > > Keith Smith
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Joshua
> Zeidner
> >> <>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >> From: Joshua Zeidner <>
> >> >> > >> Subject: Re:
> Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur
> >> Stuff to
> >> >> do in PHX
> >> >> > >> To: "Main PLUG discussion
> list"
> >> <>
> >> >> > >> Date: Saturday, August 1,
> 2009, 6:08
> >> PM
> >> >> > >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at
> 11:09 PM,
> >> >> > >> Alan Dayley<>
> >> >> > >> wrote:
> >> >> > >> > Joshua,
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > I put all your replies
> together
> >> in one
> >> >> long document
> >> >> > >> and reread them.
> >> >> > >> > I am still confused a
> bit.
> >> >> Enlightenment via email
> >> >> > >> rarely occurs.
> >> >> > >> > However, I really want
> to
> >> understand
> >> >> your position in
> >> >> > >> this discussion.
> >> >> > >> >  Let me summarize
> what I
> >> understand
> >> >> from your
> >> >> > >> replies.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > ---[Start my
> paraphasing of
> >> your
> >> >> comments]---
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > - There is a small
> group or
> >> groups of
> >> >> people who keep
> >> >> > >> spinning off
> >> >> > >> > communities using
> tired
> >> marketing
> >> >> techniques.  This
> >> >> > >> results in blogs
> >> >> > >> > but not true
> communities.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > - Some of these people
> cannot
> >> deal with
> >> >> existing
> >> >> > >> structure and the
> >> >> > >> > efforts of the past.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > - These weak attempts
> do not
> >> articulate
> >> >> goals or
> >> >> > >> purpose well, if at all.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > - We must honestly
> look at
> >> criticism to
> >> >> learn and
> >> >> > >> improve.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > - These weak people
> need to
> >> address the
> >> >> efforts of the
> >> >> > >> past and
> >> >> > >> > provide suggestions on
> how they
> >> can be
> >> >> improved upon.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > - Getting political
> support
> >> will provide
> >> >> legitimacy to
> >> >> > >> their efforts.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > - Phoenix will
> attract
> >> technology
> >> >> businesses because
> >> >> > >> of the relative
> >> >> > >> > low cost and this will
> help
> >> improve
> >> >> things.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > - You have first hand
> >> experiences of
> >> >> weak, marketing
> >> >> > >> fronted,
> >> >> > >> > community building
> efforts.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > - Many 'entrepreneurs'
> have
> >> grand ideas
> >> >> but get
> >> >> > >> nowhere with them
> >> >> > >> > because they are not
> real
> >> businesses.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > - People at a
> co-working
> >> location or
> >> >> coffee shop will
> >> >> > >> not help you
> >> >> > >> > with your business
> unless you
> >> pay them.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > - Most people at
> co-working
> >> started
> >> >> their one person
> >> >> > >> business after
> >> >> > >> > being laid-off and are
> not
> >> serious about
> >> >> it.  They
> >> >> > >> are really just
> >> >> > >> > looking for the next
> full time
> >> >> gig.  This will get in
> >> >> > >> your way if you
> >> >> > >> > have real business
> work to do.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > - We must look
> truthfully at
> >> this issue
> >> >> if we are to
> >> >> > >> make progress.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > - There are no
> serious
> >> incubators and
> >> >> entrepreneurial
> >> >> > >> meetups in
> >> >> > >> > Phoenix.  No
> announcements on
> >> VC
> >> >> funding of companies
> >> >> > >> so it's not
> >> >> > >> > really entrepreneurial
> growth.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > ---[End my
> paraphrasing of
> >> your
> >> >> comments]---
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > I see validity in
> every one of
> >> these
> >> >> comments.  I
> >> >> > >> also think many of
> >> >> > >> > them can be balanced
> by the
> >> other point
> >> >> of view.  I
> >> >> > >> still have
> >> >> > >> > questions, if I may
> ask, before
> >> I state
> >> >> too much of my
> >> >> > >> own thinking.
> >> >> > >> > I want to learn more
> about
> >> your
> >> >> thinking.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > 1. What does "deal
> with
> >> existing
> >> >> structure" mean?
> >> >> > >>  This confuses me,
> >> >> > >> > not know what
> structure you are
> >> talking
> >> >> about.
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >>   Many user groups have
> been
> >> >> formed and continue to
> >> >> > >> exist... how is
> >> >> > >> <groupX> different? 
> other
> >> than
> >> >> its led by
> >> >> > >> person Y?  I mean dealing
> >> >> > >> with some of these groups I
> feel
> >> like Im back
> >> >> to age 8
> >> >> > >> trying to gain
> >> >> > >> admittance into the
> neighborhood
> >> >> treehouse.  Perhaps I
> >> >> > >> should spend
> >> >> > >> more time drinking beer
> with these
> >> >> people?  Seeing the
> >> >> > >> same small
> >> >> > >> group churning out
> 'communities' is
> >> at first
> >> >> funny, then
> >> >> > >> annoying.  I
> >> >> > >> just see a real lack of
> serious
> >> intent, and
> >> >> unless that is
> >> >> > >> noted
> >> >> > >> publicly, it makes all of
> us look
> >> bad.
> >> >> I really dont
> >> >> > >> think Im being
> >> >> > >> destructive or malicious
> here, Im
> >> pointing
> >> >> out some valid
> >> >> > >> observations.
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > 2. To what efforts of
> the past
> >> are you
> >> >> referring?  I
> >> >> > >> want to
> >> >> > >> > understand the size
> and nature
> >> of
> >> >> efforts to creating
> >> >> > >> a community that
> >> >> > >> > you feel were
> legitimate but
> >> perhaps did
> >> >> not work as
> >> >> > >> planned.
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >>   I remember when I
> first came
> >> >> to AZ that there was an
> >> >> > >> tech
> >> >> > >> incubator...  what
> happened to it?
> >> >> Which
> >> >> > >> political agents currently
> >> >> > >> support technology
> development in
> >> the
> >> >> valley?  what do
> >> >> > >> they think
> >> >> > >> about your org?  these
> things are
> >> pretty
> >> >> basic...
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > 3. What political
> support is
> >> >> needed?  You mean
> >> >> > >> government funding of
> >> >> > >> > events or startups or
> just
> >> verbal
> >> >> support or what?
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >>   I wouldn't expect
> funding,
> >> >> but it would be good to
> >> >> > >> see some
> >> >> > >> political buy in.  Lack of
> just
> >> supports
> >> >> my opinions,
> >> >> > >> that its really
> >> >> > >> as Lisa said, camouflage
> for poor
> >> >> organization.
> >> >> > >> Without any good
> >> >> > >> signposts, all this will
> produce are
> >> people
> >> >> who get jaded
> >> >> > >> and
> >> >> > >> disaffected with regards to
> this
> >> >> location.  If you had
> >> >> > >> something
> >> >> > >> together I doubt that a
> good
> >> politician would
> >> >> turn you
> >> >> > >> down.
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > 4. Why is it wrong or
> a problem
> >> for
> >> >> someone who is
> >> >> > >> laid-off to have
> >> >> > >> > grand ideas, talk
> about them
> >> and they
> >> >> never come to
> >> >> > >> be?
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >>   Its not.  As I said,
> I
> >> >> don't find any of these
> >> >> > >> things highly
> >> >> > >> offensive- but like you I
> am free to
> >> express
> >> >> myself.
> >> >> > >> Sorry if its not
> >> >> > >> filled with abundant
> exaltations.
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > 5. Is it not
> conceivable that
> >> people
> >> >> might help each
> >> >> > >> other in business
> >> >> > >> > efforts?  Isn't
> strengthening
> >> and
> >> >> creating such a
> >> >> > >> culture a good idea
> >> >> > >> > or should such a goal
> not be
> >> pursued
> >> >> because it is not
> >> >> > >> practically
> >> >> > >> > possible?
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >>   sure.  good thread
> >> >> btw.  -jmz
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > Alan
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > On Fri, Jul 31, 2009
> at 4:20
> >> PM, Joshua
> >> >> Zeidner<>
> >> >> > >> wrote:
> >> >> > >> >> another great
> one:
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> "OK, my question
> stands.
> >> Where are
> >> >> the incubators,
> >> >> > >> the "bootstrap"
> >> >> > >> >> seminars, the
> serious
> >> >> entrepreneurial meetups in
> >> >> > >> Phoenix??? (crickets
> >> >> > >> >> chirping). Phoenix
> just
> >> ain't
> >> >> happening as a
> >> >> > >> serious place where
> >> >> > >> >> serious people are
> doing
> >> serious
> >> >> things. No one
> >> >> > >> wants it badly enough
> >> >> > >> >> here. This paper
> should be
> >> having at
> >> >> least one
> >> >> > >> article a week on a new
> >> >> > >> >> startup and the VC
> firm who
> >> funded
> >> >> it.
> >> >> > >> Helloooo????? is anybody
> out
> >> >> > >> >> there...."
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> a better way to
> phrase
> >> this: we need
> >> >> to stop
> >> >> > >> pretending these
> >> >> > >> >> whimsical efforts
> churned
> >> out by
> >> >> local
> >> >> > >> self-employed marketing
> experts
> >> >> > >> >> are sufficient. 
> They are
> >> >> not.  We should be
> >> >> > >> asking the hard
> >> >> > >> >> questions, not
> playing
> >> games.
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> -jmz
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> On Fri, Jul 31,
> 2009 at
> >> 4:04 PM,
> >> >> Joshua
> >> >> > >> Zeidner<>
> >> >> > >> wrote:
> >> >> > >> >>>  another
> point,
> >> honestly
> >> >> reading through some
> >> >> > >> of the criticisms on
> >> >> > >> >>> azcentral and
> being of
> >> the cafe
> >> >> dwelling creed
> >> >> > >> myself, I'd have to say
> >> >> > >> >>> that many of
> those
> >> points are
> >> >> accurate.  I've
> >> >> > >> heard lots of
> >> >> > >> >>>
> 'entrepreneurs' with
> >> big ideas
> >> >> around here who
> >> >> > >> never get anywhere with
> >> >> > >> >>> them.  Sorry,
> but a
> >> word
> >> >> press template
> >> >> > >> doesn't make you an
> >> >> > >> >>> entrepreneur.
> >> >> > >> >>>
> >> >> > >> >>>  "These are
> the same
> >> people
> >> >> you see at
> >> >> > >> Starbucks, Boarders or any
> >> >> > >> >>> other wi-fi
> hot spot,
> >> they are
> >> >> not
> >> >> > >> entrepreneurs they are
> attention
> >> >> > >> >>> (inappropriate
> term)."
> >> >> > >> >>>
> >> >> > >> >>>  "Many of
> the
> >> Co-Worker
> >> >> location founders
> >> >> > >> tout other people to
> >> >> > >> >>> collaborate
> with and
> >> who can
> >> >> "compensate for
> >> >> > >> your deficiencies". Do
> >> >> > >> >>> you really
> believe
> >> someone that
> >> >> you are not
> >> >> > >> paying as an employee is
> >> >> > >> >>> going to
> somehow
> >> compensate for
> >> >> your
> >> >> > >> deficiencies and make your
> >> >> > >> >>> business
> better? That
> >> kind of
> >> >> help doesn't
> >> >> > >> come without a price."
> >> >> > >> >>>
> >> >> > >> >>>  oh so
> true...
> >> >> > >> >>>
> >> >> > >> >>>  "You are
> more likely
> >> to
> >> >> get a bunch of
> >> >> > >> people chatting to you
> over
> >> >> > >> >>> your "work" so
> you wont
> >> be
> >> >> concentrating as
> >> >> > >> you should to focus on
> >> >> > >> >>> your business.
> Most of
> >> these
> >> >> people started
> >> >> > >> businesses after being
> >> >> > >> >>> laid off. They
> are
> >> searching for
> >> >> a new job and
> >> >> > >> they aren't really
> >> >> > >> >>> serious about
> their
> >> "businesses"
> >> >> so how do you
> >> >> > >> expect them to give you
> >> >> > >> >>> valuable,
> serious
> >> advice. Are
> >> >> these the kind
> >> >> > >> of people you need to
> >> >> > >> >>> compensate for
> your
> >> >> deficiencies? A bunch of
> >> >> > >> people half-as running
> >> >> > >> >>> their
> "business" while
> >> searching
> >> >> for a real
> >> >> > >> job and bothering you with
> >> >> > >> >>> their
> expertise that
> >> got them
> >> >> laid off in the
> >> >> > >> first place."
> >> >> > >> >>>
> >> >> > >> >>>  oh so so
> true...
> >> >> > >> >>>
> >> >> > >> >>>  I would be
> willing to
> >> bet
> >> >> the commenter
> >> >> > >> above is an tried and true
> >> >> > >> >>> successful
> >> entrepreneur.
> >> >> Perhaps the reason
> >> >> > >> I am so skeptical is
> >> >> > >> >>> because I know
> these
> >> kind of
> >> >> people so well.
> >> >> > >> >>>
> >> >> > >> >>>  sorry I
> really wish
> >> I
> >> >> could be more
> >> >> > >> supportive... but :  truth
> is
> >> >> > >> >>> the foundation
> of
> >> progress.
> >> >> > >> >>>
> >> >> > >> >>>  -jmz
> >> >> > >> >>>
> >> >> > >> >>>
> >> >> > >> >>> On Fri, Jul
> 31, 2009 at
> >> 3:28 PM,
> >> >> Joshua
> >> >> > >> Zeidner<>
> >> >> > >> wrote:
> >> >> > >> >>>>  Alan,
> >> >> > >> >>>>
> >> >> > >> >>>>    Wish
> I had
> >> time
> >> >> to respond to all
> >> >> > >> these points right now, not
> sure
> >> >> > >> >>>> you read
> me the way
> >> I would
> >> >> prefer
> >> >> > >> however.  Its not so grave
> a
> >> >> > >> >>>> warning,
> just
> >> getting the
> >> >> word out on my
> >> >> > >> first hand experiences. 
> Im
> >> >> > >> >>>> just one
> of many-
> >> but
> >> >> hopefully an
> >> >> > >> impartial observer and
> someone
> >> >> > >> >>>> genuinely
> concerned
> >> for AZ.
> >> >> > >> >>>>
> >> >> > >> >>>>  all the
> best,
> >> jmz
> >> >> > >> >>>>
> >> >> > >> >>>>
> >> >> > >> >>>> On Fri,
> Jul 31,
> >> 2009 at 3:12
> >> >> PM, Alan
> >> >> > >> Dayley<>
> >> >> > >> wrote:
> >> >> > >> >>>>> Josh,
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> >> >> > >> >>>>> I
> feel
> >> warned.  And
> >> >> I don't
> >> >> > >> understand the reason for
> such a
> >> strong
> >> >> warning.
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> >> >> > >> >>>>> There
> are
> >> people in
> >> >> every industry,
> >> >> > >> government or community who
> wish
> >> >> > >> >>>>> to
> fleece
> >> their
> >> >> "community" for their
> >> >> > >> own profit instead of
> mutual
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> benefit.  The
> >> trick
> >> >> is to find the
> >> >> > >> positive people and ignore
> the
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> rest.  Apply
> >> the
> >> >> same filter with
> >> >> > >> every event, group or
> blogger in
> >> the
> >> >> > >> >>>>> lists
> and links
> >> I
> >> >> provided.  I don't
> >> >> > >> expect bloggers or techies
> to be
> >> >> > >> >>>>> any
> different,
> >> as if
> >> >> being techie
> >> >> > >> makes one a saint.
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> >> >> > >> >>>>> Some
> of those
> >> bloggers
> >> >> are purely
> >> >> > >> commercial or completely
> neglected,
> >> >> > >> >>>>> I'm
> sure.
> >> Some of
> >> >> the groups or
> >> >> > >> events or sites listed are
> lousy,
> >> >> > >> >>>>> boring
> or poor
> >> marketing
> >> >> excuses to
> >> >> > >> sell something.  Some are
> not out
> >> >> > >> >>>>> to
> create
> >> community but
> >> >> to build a
> >> >> > >> "kingdom" for their own
> benefit.
> >> >> > >> >>>>> They
> are the
> >> duds.
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> >> >> > >> >>>>> Let's
> look at a
> >> few
> >> >> positives:
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> >> >> > >> >>>>> - Read
> the
> >> Gangplank
> >> >> Manifesto on
> >> >> > >> their home page at
> >> >> > >> >>>>> http://gangplankhq.com.  That looks like
> >> >> > >> a great articulation of
> their
> >> >> > >> >>>>> goals
> and
> >> purpose.
> >> >> Ones I strongly
> >> >> > >> support!
> >> >> > >> >>>>> --
> Read how
> >> the
> >> >> manifesto came to be
> >> >> > >> on Derek's blog at
> >> >> > >> >>>>> http://derekneighbors.com/2009/07/collaborative-writing-or-how-the-gangplank-manifesto-was-written/
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> >> >> > >> >>>>> -
> Gangplank has
> >> hosted
> >> >> or is hosting:
> >> >> > >> >>>>> --
> MobiFest - a
> >> day long
> >> >> conference on
> >> >> > >> developing for phones like
> >> >> > >> >>>>> iPhone
> or
> >> Android
> >> >> > >> >>>>> --
> Gangplank
> >> Jr. - a 2-3
> >> >> hour Saturday
> >> >> > >> event for kids 5-15 to
> learn
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> programming
> >> concepts
> >> >> > >> >>>>> --
> Wordpress
> >> training
> >> >> classes for
> >> >> > >> minimal cost or no-cost
> for
> >> non-profit orgs
> >> >> > >> >>>>> --
> Laid Off
> >> Camp - a day
> >> >> long
> >> >> > >> conference on job searching
> and
> >> >> entreprenuership
> >> >> > >> >>>>> --
> Barcamp
> >> Pheonix - a
> >> >> day long
> >> >> > >> conference on software
> development
> >> >> > >> >>>>> --
> TEDx night -
> >> Watch
> >> >> ted.com videos
> >> >> > >> and discuss them
> >> >> > >> >>>>> --
> OpenPhoenix
> >> - a night
> >> >> of open mic
> >> >> > >> music and entertainment
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> >> >> > >> >>>>> - The
> last http://desertcodecamp.com/ was held on June 13th and
> >> >> > >> nearly
> >> >> > >> >>>>> filled
> DeVry's
> >> Phoenix
> >> >> campus with
> >> >> > >> developers talking about
> code or
> >> >> > >> >>>>> making
> code.
> >> Free
> >> >> lunch of pizza and
> >> >> > >> sub sandwiches was provided
> too.
> >> >> > >> >>>>>  Put
> together
> >> by
> >> >> volunteers.
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> >> >> > >> >>>>> - If
> you're
> >> into
> >> >> Microsoft based
> >> >> > >> development tech, the
> people who
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> maintain the http://azgroups.com site do an annual all-day event at
> >> >> > >> >>>>> venues
> like the
> >> Orphium
> >> >> Theater and at
> >> >> > >> no cost to attendees. 
> Fine,
> >> >> > >> >>>>> it's
> marketing
> >> for MS
> >> >> but it's put on
> >> >> > >> by volunteers here in the
> valley
> >> >> > >> >>>>> and a
> great way
> >> for
> >> >> people to learn
> >> >> > >> about things that improve
> their
> >> >> > >> >>>>> career
> skills.
> >> >> > >> >>>>> (http://www.componentart.com/BLOGS/milos/archive/2009/06/02/scott-guthrie-event-2009-phoenix-az.aspx)
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> >> >> > >> >>>>> - The
> local
> >> Ruby On
> >> >> Rails group has
> >> >> > >> monthly meetings with
> around 30
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> regularly in
> >> >> attendance.
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> >> >> > >> >>>>> - The
> Java
> >> group is also
> >> >> well attended
> >> >> > >> every month.
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> >> >> > >> >>>>> - The
> third http://podcampaz.com/ is coming up in November, put on
> >> >> > >> by
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> voluteers at no
> >> cost
> >> >> (donation
> >> >> > >> requested) to attendees. 
> Had about
> >> 350
> >> >> > >> >>>>> people
> attend
> >> last year
> >> >> (if I recall)
> >> >> > >> for two days of
> conference.
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> >> >> > >> >>>>> - The
> http://azentrepreneurship.com/ conference will be in
> >> >> > >> November
> >> >> > >> >>>>> for
> the forth
> >> >> year.  This one costs
> >> >> > >> $100+ but should be as
> well
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> attended as
> >> last year
> >> >> with 200+
> >> >> > >> people.  Funded and
> organized in
> >> part
> >> >> > >> >>>>> by a
> local
> >> venture
> >> >> capital group.
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> >> >> > >> >>>>> - The
> first http://ignitephoenix.com event was held a year ago
> >> >> with
> >> >> > >> a
> >> >> > >> >>>>> little
> over 100
> >> in
> >> >> attendance and has
> >> >> > >> grown to fill the 600 seat
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> Theather at
> >> Tempe Center
> >> >> for the Arts
> >> >> > >> back in June.  The
> connections
> >> >> > >> >>>>> made
> there live
> >> well
> >> >> past the event.
> >> >> > >> >>>>> -- Oh,
> a city
> >> council
> >> >> member and the
> >> >> > >> mayor of Tempe spoke this
> last
> >> >> > >> >>>>> time,
> though he
> >> was a
> >> >> bit silly trying
> >> >> > >> to be Tempe exclusive. 
> That
> >> >> > >> >>>>> seems
> to be at
> >> least
> >> >> verbal political
> >> >> > >> support.
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> >> >> > >> >>>>> - The
> second
> >> ABLEConf on
> >> >> FS/OSS is
> >> >> > >> being planned for October
> and
> >> >> > >> >>>>> should
> be
> >> better than
> >> >> last year. (Go
> >> >> > >> Hans and team!)
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> >> >> > >> >>>>> I'm
> not going
> >> to go on,
> >> >> though I could
> >> >> > >> point out several purely
> social
> >> >> > >> >>>>> events
> like http://phoenixfridaynights.com/, it's east and west
> >> >> > >> valley
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> analogs, East
> >> Valley
> >> >> Thursday Morning
> >> >> > >> breakfasts, Tempe Geeks
> Lunch,
> >> >> > >> >>>>> South
> Valley
> >> Geek Meet
> >> >> and Eat and
> >> >> > >> Gangplank's Brown Gag
> lunch
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> presentations
> >> every
> >> >> Wednesday.
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> >> >> > >> >>>>> Now,
> having
> >> said all of
> >> >> that "giddy
> >> >> > >> blind optimism," I'd like
> to
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> understand how
> >> the above
> >> >> does not
> >> >> > >> address the efforts of the
> past or
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> provide
> >> improvement over
> >> >> past efforts.
> >> >> > >>  What are the real needs
> of the
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> community, if
> >> not some
> >> >> of the above?
> >> >> > >>  What would you suggest? 
> How can
> >> >> > >> >>>>> PLUG
> be a part
> >> of it?
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> >> >> > >> >>>>> Alan
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> >> >> > >> >>>>> On
> Fri, Jul 31,
> >> 2009 at
> >> >> 1:34 PM,
> >> >> > >> Joshua Zeidner<>
> >> >> > >> wrote:
> >> >> > >> >>>>>> 
> Alan,
> >> >> > >> >>>>>>
> >> >> > >> >>>>>> 
>   while
> >> I
> >> >> appreciate your post,
> >> >> > >> and anyone who is making a
> sincere
> >> >> > >> >>>>>>
> effort to
> >> build
> >> >> community in
> >> >> > >> Phoenix... be warned. 
> There are
> >> some
> >> >> > >> >>>>>>
> small
> >> groups who
> >> >> periodically
> >> >> > >> spawn off new 'communities'
> every
> >> month
> >> >> > >> >>>>>> or
> so.
> >> Look
> >> >> closely and you see
> >> >> > >> the same few people with
> reused
> >> >> > >> >>>>>>
> marketing
> >> >> recipes.  Lots of blog
> >> >> > >> and not too much community
> I'm
> >> >> > >> >>>>>>
> afraid.
> >> Their
> >> >> efforts amount to
> >> >> > >> some simple branding and
> putting up
> >> a
> >> >> > >> >>>>>>
> blog.
> >> While
> >> >> these things are not
> >> >> > >> really particularily
> offensive to
> >> >> > >> >>>>>>
> me, they do
> >> somewhat
> >> >> detract from
> >> >> > >> interest in the real needs
> of the
> >> >> > >> >>>>>>
> community
> >> >> here.  Some of these
> >> >> > >> people are just outright
> idiotic
> >> and
> >> >> > >> >>>>>>
> cannot deal
> >> with
> >> >> existing
> >> >> > >> structure and refuse to
> accept the
> >> history
> >> >> > >> >>>>>> of
> efforts
> >> in the
> >> >> past.  They
> >> >> > >> lack any articulation of
> their goals
> >> and
> >> >> > >> >>>>>>
> purpose.
> >> Often
> >> >> times they have
> >> >> > >> trouble organizing even
> small
> >> groups
> >> >> > >> >>>>>> of
> 2 or 3.
> >> >> Dont forget we've had
> >> >> > >> a tech incubator here. 
> Lets not
> >> >> > >> >>>>>>
> smack down
> >> sincere
> >> >> criticism in
> >> >> > >> favor of giddy blind
> optimism,
> >> >> > >> >>>>>>
> remember
> >> you can't
> >> >> improve without
> >> >> > >> criticism.  I would take
> these
> >> >> > >> >>>>>>
> people much
> >> more
> >> >> seriously if they
> >> >> > >> addressed the efforts of
> the past
> >> >> > >> >>>>>>
> and
> >> perhaps
> >> >> suggested how they are
> >> >> > >> going to improve on them,
> or
> >> >> > >> >>>>>>
> perhaps
> >> indicate
> >> >> what has changed
> >> >> > >> that will make them a
> success.
> >> >> > >> >>>>>>
> Maybe
> >> seeking real
> >> >> political
> >> >> > >> support would gain some
> legitimacy.
> >> >> > >> >>>>>>
> >> >> > >> >>>>>> 
>   on
> >> the
> >> >> positive side, I think
> >> >> > >> Phoenix will attract a lot
> of
> >> >> > >> >>>>>>
> technology
> >> business
> >> >> due to its
> >> >> > >> relative low cost and no
> doubt you
> >> will
> >> >> > >> >>>>>>
> start to
> >> see
> >> >> community
> >> >> > >> infrastructure grow.  We
> are seeing
> >> some
> >> >> real
> >> >> > >> >>>>>>
> urban
> >> development
> >> >> happening in Phx
> >> >> > >> metro which has me very
> excited.
> >> I
> >> >> > >> >>>>>>
> think when
> >> the
> >> >> macroeconomic
> >> >> > >> problems are sorted out we
> will see
> >> >> > >> >>>>>>
> downtown
> >> Phx
> >> >> bloom.  Im hoping
> >> >> > >> that the average Arizonan
> gets
> >> involved
> >> >> > >> >>>>>> in
> the
> >> political
> >> >> process and make
> >> >> > >> sure that the corruption
> stays out
> >> >> > >> >>>>>> of
> city and
> >> state
> >> >> politics.
> >> >> > >>  Coming from NY, Im
> recognizing a
> >> lot
> >> >> of
> >> >> > >> >>>>>>
> positive
> >> development
> >> >> trends in Phx
> >> >> > >> metro.
> >> >> > >> >>>>>>
> >> >> > >> >>>>>> 
> -jmz
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> >> >> > >>
> >> >>
> >>
> ---------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> PLUG-discuss
> >> mailing
> >> >> list -
> >> >> > >> >>>>> To
> subscribe,
> >> >> unsubscribe, or to
> >> >> > >> change your mail settings:
> >> >> > >> >>>>> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> >> >> > >> >>>>>
> >> >> > >> >>>>
> >> >> > >> >>>
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >>
> >> >>
> >>
> ---------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > >> >> PLUG-discuss
> mailing list -
> >>
> >> >> > >> >> To subscribe,
> unsubscribe,
> >> or to
> >> >> change your mail
> >> >> > >> settings:
> >> >> > >> >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >>
> >>
> ---------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > >> > PLUG-discuss mailing
> list -
> >> >> > >> > To subscribe,
> unsubscribe, or
> >> to change
> >> >> your mail
> >> >> > >> settings:
> >> >> > >> > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >>
> >> >>
> >>
> ---------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > >> PLUG-discuss mailing list -
>
> >> >> > >> To subscribe, unsubscribe,
> or to
> >> change your
> >> >> mail
> >> >> > >> settings:
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> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >>
> >>
> ---------------------------------------------------
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> to change
> >> your mail
> >> >> settings:
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> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >>
> ---------------------------------------------------
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> >> mail
> >> >> settings:
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> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> ---------------------------------------------------
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> your mail
> >> >> settings:
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> >> >>
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> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> ---------------------------------------------------
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> >> settings:
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> >> settings:
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