So why would you want to continue down this same path? ------------------------ Keith Smith --- On Sun, 8/2/09, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > From: Joshua Zeidner > Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in PHX > To: "Main PLUG discussion list" > Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 2:58 PM > On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 2:51 PM, keith > smith > wrote: > > > > > > I think anytime government gets involved in anything > it is bad.  If the government is going to be in charge of > giving grants to business development groups only the > friends of government will get the grants. > >   the friends of govt are getting the grants right > now.  believe me, > I've been at the State Senate.  It's a zoo.  > We're about to make the > biggest financial decision AZ has made in decades. -jmz > > > > > > > We agree on one thing.  Accurate reporting is needed. >  That is what is missing. > > > > > > ------------------------ > > Keith Smith > > > > > > --- On Sun, 8/2/09, Joshua Zeidner > wrote: > > > >> From: Joshua Zeidner > >> Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in > PHX > >> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" > >> Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 2:41 PM > >> On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 2:21 PM, keith > >> smith > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > With the exception of labor law violations > what you > >> have outlined has to do with business practices. > >> > > >> > How can government improve these problems? > >> > >>   I think that the technology development people > need > >> clear > >> representation in state govt.  You certainly have > this > >> in CA, and the > >> political support is funneled through > professional > >> orgs.  As was > >> pointed out the professional orgs are somewhat > lacking > >> here- perhaps > >> this warrants a closer look.  Perhaps we need to > take > >> a look at who it > >> is that runs them.  In my view the only way to > make a > >> durable org is > >> direct support by state or city govt.  Economic > >> development in AZ is > >> typically modeled as low cost industrial > investment + cheap > >> labor = > >> $$$$!  Im not suggesting doing away with it, but > it > >> has expanded > >> enough to antagonize other kinds of development.  > I > >> dont think cheap > >> labor should come at the cost of University.  > This is > >> the 21st > >> century- cast iron widgets are becoming cheaper > and > >> cheaper. > >> > >>   Again just to clarify, I have nothing against > >> Gangplank.  But we > >> have to be accurate when we talk about it.  It's > not > >> the Kleiner > >> Perkins of Arizona.  If we allow that perception > to > >> persist, AZ will > >> gain a reputation as a fraud.  Secondly I would > >> appreciate it if some > >> of the protagonists of these groups were a bit > clearer > >> about their > >> identity.  Some of these groups conjure up images > of > >> those cheapo > >> chinese buffets that change their names every few > months. > >> > >>   Keith I dont have a business plan... but we > need to > >> start by > >> accurately reporting on the state of things.  > Then we > >> can make the > >> right decisions. > >> > >>   -jmz > >> > >> > > >> > ------------------------ > >> > Keith Smith > >> > > >> > > >> > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Michael Butash > >> wrote: > >> > > >> >> From: Michael Butash > >> >> Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff > to do in > >> PHX > >> >> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" > >> >> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 10:31 PM > >> >> Well, largely I agree with Joshua's > >> >> assessment, sounds like his > >> >> experience is much like mine... > >> >> > >> >> I moved to the Bay area in 99, worked > tech there > >> for 2 > >> >> years, moved back > >> >> when things imploded in 01.  Since being > back > >> versed > >> >> with tech skill and > >> >> corporate politics, I've only ever been > able to > >> describe > >> >> most business > >> >> in Arizona as bass-ackward and/or > hot-air > >> propelled. > >> >> Largely I note > >> >> Arizona seems to encourage abuse of fair > labor > >> standards > >> >> act for > >> >> salaried employees, resulting in a lot > of > >> "sweatshop IT" > >> >> mentality in > >> >> corporations here.  Funny I heard > mentioned > >> godaddy > >> >> and 2wire, as they > >> >> tend to be some of the biggest offenders > of > >> running said > >> >> sweat shops. > >> >> Give your buddy 6 months at the Daddy to > acclimate > >> to them > >> >> and ask what > >> >> he thinks.  :) > >> >> > >> >> When I did move back to AZ, I'd joined > some > >> professional > >> >> "networking" > >> >> groups like AZIPA that led to not much > more than > >> pedantic > >> >> bickering and > >> >> posturing, not much at all helpful for > business > >> or > >> >> technology > >> >> opportunities.  Ultimately I saw it > splinter, > >> >> fracture, and a lot of > >> >> people simply lose interest because of > it, > >> including > >> >> myself.  From that > >> >> I found being an island unto yourself > isn't always > >> a bad > >> >> thing, simply > >> >> networking with people I met through > work.  Only > >> >> recently have I > >> >> somewhat opened up to professional > networking > >> though > >> >> LinkedIn and user > >> >> groups like this one, but really just to > keep > >> touch with > >> >> associates and > >> >> clients of mine.  I'm still gun shy on > the > >> rest... > >> >> > >> >> Since being back in AZ, I've worked for a > lot of > >> IT shops > >> >> and been > >> >> exposed to a lot of people shifting > between jobs, > >> finding > >> >> that more or > >> >> less most corporate politics surrounding > IT are > >> the same, > >> >> and not > >> >> typically good.  I worked 3 years at > GoDaddy > >> prior and > >> >> through massive > >> >> growth, while one of my best work > experiences > >> (building > >> >> cool/expensive > >> >> stuff), it was also one of the worst > (meat > >> grinder > >> >> stressful workplace, > >> >> implosive politics).  GD and frankly a > lot of > >> >> companies I've been > >> >> exposed to are more alike than not, > typically > >> because of > >> >> clueless upper > >> >> management and general lack of ethics, > but somehow > >> forge > >> >> along despite > >> >> themselves.  Closest analogy I can > equated it to > >> >> universally is "the > >> >> blind leading the blind", where > self-serving > >> politics, > >> >> combined with > >> >> poor technological leadership, and now > volatile > >> economics > >> >> eventually > >> >> dictate perspective reasoning of how > things > >> work.  Bad > >> >> things tend to > >> >> result, and often... > >> >> > >> >> The difference between working in the Bay > Area and > >> in > >> >> Arizona is stark. > >> >> Generally I found a lot better talent > there, with > >> a > >> >> stronger likeliness > >> >> to embrace technology, and be passionate > about > >> their > >> >> work.  Here there's > >> >> just a lot of people graduating DeVry, > UoP, WIU, > >> and other > >> >> "schools" > >> >> cranking out mediocre certified/degreed > >> cannon-fodder for > >> >> the local IT > >> >> shops, trying to get paid by the IT dream > job. > >> It's > >> >> almost scary > >> >> walking into new customer businesses > consulting > >> anymore, > >> >> pretty safe to > >> >> assume someone knows nothing than > anything about > >> the tech > >> >> they support. > >> >> While I did have this too in the Bay > Area, the > >> clueless > >> >> admin syndrome > >> >> is a heck of a lot more prevalent here.  > Work > >> ethics > >> >> tend to be crappier > >> >> too.  I dunno, something in the water > perhaps... > >> >> > >> >> Look around at the sheer number of call > centers > >> for > >> >> businesses out of > >> >> state we have here, and that should tell > you > >> >> something.  A lot of > >> >> low-pay, mediocre jobs, and a career path > to > >> become a > >> >> cattle herder of > >> >> these call centers, maybe even move into > middle > >> management > >> >> if you're > >> >> lucky.  Businesses like GoDaddy, 2wire, > CableOne, > >> Cox, > >> >> ETelecare, etc > >> >> simply rotate people in and out like > underwear, > >> but they're > >> >> the armpits > >> >> that fund a lot of the IT business around > town as > >> well, as > >> >> someone's got > >> >> to support all the infrastructure to take > those > >> >> calls.  Godaddy's call > >> >> centers are slightly different because > they > >> actually MAKE > >> >> them money, so > >> >> they tend to commission merit pay and > lavish gifts > >> readily > >> >> upon them to > >> >> keep everyone happy, but it's still at > the root > >> just > >> >> another sweatshop > >> >> call center.  Other call centers are > much less > >> >> forgiving... > >> >> > >> >> Supporting IT shops around call centers > tends to > >> be a > >> >> double-edged > >> >> sword, especially when the call center > slave > >> mentality > >> >> pervades into the > >> >> how companies deal with or even drive IT > folk. > >> Even > >> >> non-call-centers > >> >> seem to act this way locally more > commonly than > >> not, just > >> >> because they > >> >> can, and it's the atmosphere people are > becoming > >> acclimated > >> >> to.  As > >> >> people migrate jobs, I think ultimately > this > >> pervasive > >> >> mentality results > >> >> in excessive overwork and general > dissatisfaction, > >> causing > >> >> a > >> >> trickle-down effect into other work > places. > >> >> > >> >> These > disinterested/jaded/overworked/underpaid > >> workers now > >> >> head out into > >> >> other IT shops to maintain infrastructure > over > >> their head > >> >> and > >> >> undermanned, meaning things degrade > eventually > >> even if once > >> >> deployed > >> >> properly.  I'm not at all certain if > this is just > >> a > >> >> local thing, or the > >> >> new national standard at work, but it > seems much > >> more > >> >> pervasive here > >> >> than certain other localities I work > with. > >> >> Professional ethics are hard > >> >> to find these days in general with hard > times > >> indeed. > >> >> Anyone else of > >> >> hiring capacity notice try hiring *good* > people > >> these > >> >> days?  Pretty > >> >> difficult if you ask me. > >> >> > >> >> Overall, working in the tech field here > for the > >> past 8 > >> >> years in a more > >> >> senior capacity, I'm often uncertain I > want to > >> remain in AZ > >> >> long-term. > >> >> As I get older, my flame to set upon the > world > >> diminishes, > >> >> I'll probably > >> >> just wander until I feel comfortable for > a bit. > >> I > >> >> love AZ, but I'm > >> >> fairly disparaged by the business > opportunities > >> here after > >> >> all these > >> >> years... > >> >> > >> >> So enough hot-air of my own, take it as > you will, > >> but > >> >> that's my take on > >> >> things.  Feel free to disagree.  :) > >> >> > >> >> Good discussion indeed, interesting to > hear > >> other's > >> >> opinions on the > >> >> matter. > >> >> > >> >> -mb > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Sat, 2009-08-01 at 19:08 -0700, Joshua > Zeidner > >> wrote: > >> >> > On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 6:50 PM, > keith > >> smith > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > I think what is really missing > from this > >> equation > >> >> is mentoring and training. > >> >> > > >> >> >   what I would like to see is > some real > >> >> support from AZ government to > >> >> > help make tech companies feel > welcome here. > >> This > >> >> means: > >> >> > > >> >> >   1) making the valley a good > place not > >> >> only to build a company but to > >> >> > build a *career*.  this means buy > in from > >> both > >> >> sides of the equation. > >> >> > I would like to see a bit more > address at > >> lower > >> >> capital levels, but > >> >> > that may prove to be difficult.  It > seems > >> that > >> >> most existing concepts > >> >> > are kind of stuck in the industrial > model, > >> where you > >> >> build a factory > >> >> > in a place with low taxes and hire > low wage > >> workers, > >> >> but technology > >> >> > requires high wage workers who > demand a good > >> thriving > >> >> job market.  The > >> >> > needs are quite different.  The > biggest > >> issue > >> >> with starting a company > >> >> > out here is finding people.  Where > are all > >> the > >> >> people?  in CA. > >> >> > because it has a good job market.  > If we > >> can > >> >> outsource to India, we > >> >> > sure as hell can outsource to > Arizona. > >> >> > > >> >> >   2) setting up low cost legal > >> >> structure and as you say mentoring to > >> >> > really help stimulate technology > >> development. > >> >> We've seen (at least > >> >> > nominal) efforts in the past.  Why > did they > >> >> fail?  This means real and > >> >> > adequate assistance in bringing > concepts to > >> production > >> >> and market.  A > >> >> > small investment in this area will > yield > >> returns in > >> >> tax base and > >> >> > property value by a factor of > hundreds. > >> Arizona > >> >> has the potential to > >> >> > pick up a lot of this commercial > activity > >> because > >> >> California is > >> >> > currently set to become a tax > strapped > >> nightmare state > >> >> to build your > >> >> > business.  If AZ fails to see the > >> opportunity > >> >> here, we will lose out > >> >> > big time.  Currently the budget > proceedings > >> are > >> >> still in gridlock. > >> >> > > >> >> >   the mayor of Phoenix seems to > have > >> >> the right idea, he was suggesting > >> >> > recently a green technology center > near Phx > >> >> center.  I think thats the > >> >> > direction AZ needs to go.  -jmz > >> >> > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > I like the idea that folks are > getting > >> together > >> >> to network.  This is a really cool > idea.  Even > >> for > >> >> non-technical stuff like finding out how > people > >> deal with > >> >> customers, contracting, book-keeping, > ETC. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > ------------------------ > >> >> > > Keith Smith > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Joshua > Zeidner > >> > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > > > >> >> > >> From: Joshua Zeidner > >> >> > >> Subject: Re: > Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur > >> Stuff to > >> >> do in PHX > >> >> > >> To: "Main PLUG discussion > list" > >> > >> >> > >> Date: Saturday, August 1, > 2009, 6:08 > >> PM > >> >> > >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at > 11:09 PM, > >> >> > >> Alan Dayley > >> >> > >> wrote: > >> >> > >> > Joshua, > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > I put all your replies > together > >> in one > >> >> long document > >> >> > >> and reread them. > >> >> > >> > I am still confused a > bit. > >> >> Enlightenment via email > >> >> > >> rarely occurs. > >> >> > >> > However, I really want > to > >> understand > >> >> your position in > >> >> > >> this discussion. > >> >> > >> >  Let me summarize > what I > >> understand > >> >> from your > >> >> > >> replies. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > ---[Start my > paraphasing of > >> your > >> >> comments]--- > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > - There is a small > group or > >> groups of > >> >> people who keep > >> >> > >> spinning off > >> >> > >> > communities using > tired > >> marketing > >> >> techniques.  This > >> >> > >> results in blogs > >> >> > >> > but not true > communities. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > - Some of these people > cannot > >> deal with > >> >> existing > >> >> > >> structure and the > >> >> > >> > efforts of the past. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > - These weak attempts > do not > >> articulate > >> >> goals or > >> >> > >> purpose well, if at all. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > - We must honestly > look at > >> criticism to > >> >> learn and > >> >> > >> improve. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > - These weak people > need to > >> address the > >> >> efforts of the > >> >> > >> past and > >> >> > >> > provide suggestions on > how they > >> can be > >> >> improved upon. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > - Getting political > support > >> will provide > >> >> legitimacy to > >> >> > >> their efforts. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > - Phoenix will > attract > >> technology > >> >> businesses because > >> >> > >> of the relative > >> >> > >> > low cost and this will > help > >> improve > >> >> things. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > - You have first hand > >> experiences of > >> >> weak, marketing > >> >> > >> fronted, > >> >> > >> > community building > efforts. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > - Many 'entrepreneurs' > have > >> grand ideas > >> >> but get > >> >> > >> nowhere with them > >> >> > >> > because they are not > real > >> businesses. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > - People at a > co-working > >> location or > >> >> coffee shop will > >> >> > >> not help you > >> >> > >> > with your business > unless you > >> pay them. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > - Most people at > co-working > >> started > >> >> their one person > >> >> > >> business after > >> >> > >> > being laid-off and are > not > >> serious about > >> >> it.  They > >> >> > >> are really just > >> >> > >> > looking for the next > full time > >> >> gig.  This will get in > >> >> > >> your way if you > >> >> > >> > have real business > work to do. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > - We must look > truthfully at > >> this issue > >> >> if we are to > >> >> > >> make progress. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > - There are no > serious > >> incubators and > >> >> entrepreneurial > >> >> > >> meetups in > >> >> > >> > Phoenix.  No > announcements on > >> VC > >> >> funding of companies > >> >> > >> so it's not > >> >> > >> > really entrepreneurial > growth. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > ---[End my > paraphrasing of > >> your > >> >> comments]--- > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > I see validity in > every one of > >> these > >> >> comments.  I > >> >> > >> also think many of > >> >> > >> > them can be balanced > by the > >> other point > >> >> of view.  I > >> >> > >> still have > >> >> > >> > questions, if I may > ask, before > >> I state > >> >> too much of my > >> >> > >> own thinking. > >> >> > >> > I want to learn more > about > >> your > >> >> thinking. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > 1. What does "deal > with > >> existing > >> >> structure" mean? > >> >> > >>  This confuses me, > >> >> > >> > not know what > structure you are > >> talking > >> >> about. > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >>   Many user groups have > been > >> >> formed and continue to > >> >> > >> exist... how is > >> >> > >> different?  > other > >> than > >> >> its led by > >> >> > >> person Y?  I mean dealing > >> >> > >> with some of these groups I > feel > >> like Im back > >> >> to age 8 > >> >> > >> trying to gain > >> >> > >> admittance into the > neighborhood > >> >> treehouse.  Perhaps I > >> >> > >> should spend > >> >> > >> more time drinking beer > with these > >> >> people?  Seeing the > >> >> > >> same small > >> >> > >> group churning out > 'communities' is > >> at first > >> >> funny, then > >> >> > >> annoying.  I > >> >> > >> just see a real lack of > serious > >> intent, and > >> >> unless that is > >> >> > >> noted > >> >> > >> publicly, it makes all of > us look > >> bad. > >> >> I really dont > >> >> > >> think Im being > >> >> > >> destructive or malicious > here, Im > >> pointing > >> >> out some valid > >> >> > >> observations. > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > 2. To what efforts of > the past > >> are you > >> >> referring?  I > >> >> > >> want to > >> >> > >> > understand the size > and nature > >> of > >> >> efforts to creating > >> >> > >> a community that > >> >> > >> > you feel were > legitimate but > >> perhaps did > >> >> not work as > >> >> > >> planned. > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >>   I remember when I > first came > >> >> to AZ that there was an > >> >> > >> tech > >> >> > >> incubator...  what > happened to it? > >> >> Which > >> >> > >> political agents currently > >> >> > >> support technology > development in > >> the > >> >> valley?  what do > >> >> > >> they think > >> >> > >> about your org?  these > things are > >> pretty > >> >> basic... > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > 3. What political > support is > >> >> needed?  You mean > >> >> > >> government funding of > >> >> > >> > events or startups or > just > >> verbal > >> >> support or what? > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >>   I wouldn't expect > funding, > >> >> but it would be good to > >> >> > >> see some > >> >> > >> political buy in.  Lack of > just > >> supports > >> >> my opinions, > >> >> > >> that its really > >> >> > >> as Lisa said, camouflage > for poor > >> >> organization. > >> >> > >> Without any good > >> >> > >> signposts, all this will > produce are > >> people > >> >> who get jaded > >> >> > >> and > >> >> > >> disaffected with regards to > this > >> >> location.  If you had > >> >> > >> something > >> >> > >> together I doubt that a > good > >> politician would > >> >> turn you > >> >> > >> down. > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > 4. Why is it wrong or > a problem > >> for > >> >> someone who is > >> >> > >> laid-off to have > >> >> > >> > grand ideas, talk > about them > >> and they > >> >> never come to > >> >> > >> be? > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >>   Its not.  As I said, > I > >> >> don't find any of these > >> >> > >> things highly > >> >> > >> offensive- but like you I > am free to > >> express > >> >> myself. > >> >> > >> Sorry if its not > >> >> > >> filled with abundant > exaltations. > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > 5. Is it not > conceivable that > >> people > >> >> might help each > >> >> > >> other in business > >> >> > >> > efforts?  Isn't > strengthening > >> and > >> >> creating such a > >> >> > >> culture a good idea > >> >> > >> > or should such a goal > not be > >> pursued > >> >> because it is not > >> >> > >> practically > >> >> > >> > possible? > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >>   sure.  good thread > >> >> btw.  -jmz > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > Alan > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 > at 4:20 > >> PM, Joshua > >> >> Zeidner > >> >> > >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> another great > one: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> "OK, my question > stands. > >> Where are > >> >> the incubators, > >> >> > >> the "bootstrap" > >> >> > >> >> seminars, the > serious > >> >> entrepreneurial meetups in > >> >> > >> Phoenix??? (crickets > >> >> > >> >> chirping). Phoenix > just > >> ain't > >> >> happening as a > >> >> > >> serious place where > >> >> > >> >> serious people are > doing > >> serious > >> >> things. No one > >> >> > >> wants it badly enough > >> >> > >> >> here. This paper > should be > >> having at > >> >> least one > >> >> > >> article a week on a new > >> >> > >> >> startup and the VC > firm who > >> funded > >> >> it. > >> >> > >> Helloooo????? is anybody > out > >> >> > >> >> there...." > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> a better way to > phrase > >> this: we need > >> >> to stop > >> >> > >> pretending these > >> >> > >> >> whimsical efforts > churned > >> out by > >> >> local > >> >> > >> self-employed marketing > experts > >> >> > >> >> are sufficient.  > They are > >> >> not.  We should be > >> >> > >> asking the hard > >> >> > >> >> questions, not > playing > >> games. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -jmz > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Fri, Jul 31, > 2009 at > >> 4:04 PM, > >> >> Joshua > >> >> > >> Zeidner > >> >> > >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >>>  another > point, > >> honestly > >> >> reading through some > >> >> > >> of the criticisms on > >> >> > >> >>> azcentral and > being of > >> the cafe > >> >> dwelling creed > >> >> > >> myself, I'd have to say > >> >> > >> >>> that many of > those > >> points are > >> >> accurate.  I've > >> >> > >> heard lots of > >> >> > >> >>> > 'entrepreneurs' with > >> big ideas > >> >> around here who > >> >> > >> never get anywhere with > >> >> > >> >>> them.  Sorry, > but a > >> word > >> >> press template > >> >> > >> doesn't make you an > >> >> > >> >>> entrepreneur. > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>>  "These are > the same > >> people > >> >> you see at > >> >> > >> Starbucks, Boarders or any > >> >> > >> >>> other wi-fi > hot spot, > >> they are > >> >> not > >> >> > >> entrepreneurs they are > attention > >> >> > >> >>> (inappropriate > term)." > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>>  "Many of > the > >> Co-Worker > >> >> location founders > >> >> > >> tout other people to > >> >> > >> >>> collaborate > with and > >> who can > >> >> "compensate for > >> >> > >> your deficiencies". Do > >> >> > >> >>> you really > believe > >> someone that > >> >> you are not > >> >> > >> paying as an employee is > >> >> > >> >>> going to > somehow > >> compensate for > >> >> your > >> >> > >> deficiencies and make your > >> >> > >> >>> business > better? That > >> kind of > >> >> help doesn't > >> >> > >> come without a price." > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>>  oh so > true... > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>>  "You are > more likely > >> to > >> >> get a bunch of > >> >> > >> people chatting to you > over > >> >> > >> >>> your "work" so > you wont > >> be > >> >> concentrating as > >> >> > >> you should to focus on > >> >> > >> >>> your business. > Most of > >> these > >> >> people started > >> >> > >> businesses after being > >> >> > >> >>> laid off. They > are > >> searching for > >> >> a new job and > >> >> > >> they aren't really > >> >> > >> >>> serious about > their > >> "businesses" > >> >> so how do you > >> >> > >> expect them to give you > >> >> > >> >>> valuable, > serious > >> advice. Are > >> >> these the kind > >> >> > >> of people you need to > >> >> > >> >>> compensate for > your > >> >> deficiencies? A bunch of > >> >> > >> people half-as running > >> >> > >> >>> their > "business" while > >> searching > >> >> for a real > >> >> > >> job and bothering you with > >> >> > >> >>> their > expertise that > >> got them > >> >> laid off in the > >> >> > >> first place." > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>>  oh so so > true... > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>>  I would be > willing to > >> bet > >> >> the commenter > >> >> > >> above is an tried and true > >> >> > >> >>> successful > >> entrepreneur. > >> >> Perhaps the reason > >> >> > >> I am so skeptical is > >> >> > >> >>> because I know > these > >> kind of > >> >> people so well. > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>>  sorry I > really wish > >> I > >> >> could be more > >> >> > >> supportive... but :  truth > is > >> >> > >> >>> the foundation > of > >> progress. > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>>  -jmz > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>> On Fri, Jul > 31, 2009 at > >> 3:28 PM, > >> >> Joshua > >> >> > >> Zeidner > >> >> > >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >>>>  Alan, > >> >> > >> >>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>    Wish > I had > >> time > >> >> to respond to all > >> >> > >> these points right now, not > sure > >> >> > >> >>>> you read > me the way > >> I would > >> >> prefer > >> >> > >> however.  Its not so grave > a > >> >> > >> >>>> warning, > just > >> getting the > >> >> word out on my > >> >> > >> first hand experiences.  > Im > >> >> > >> >>>> just one > of many- > >> but > >> >> hopefully an > >> >> > >> impartial observer and > someone > >> >> > >> >>>> genuinely > concerned > >> for AZ. > >> >> > >> >>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>  all the > best, > >> jmz > >> >> > >> >>>> > >> >> > >> >>>> > >> >> > >> >>>> On Fri, > Jul 31, > >> 2009 at 3:12 > >> >> PM, Alan > >> >> > >> Dayley > >> >> > >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >>>>> Josh, > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> I > feel > >> warned.  And > >> >> I don't > >> >> > >> understand the reason for > such a > >> strong > >> >> warning. > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> There > are > >> people in > >> >> every industry, > >> >> > >> government or community who > wish > >> >> > >> >>>>> to > fleece > >> their > >> >> "community" for their > >> >> > >> own profit instead of > mutual > >> >> > >> >>>>> > benefit.  The > >> trick > >> >> is to find the > >> >> > >> positive people and ignore > the > >> >> > >> >>>>> > rest.  Apply > >> the > >> >> same filter with > >> >> > >> every event, group or > blogger in > >> the > >> >> > >> >>>>> lists > and links > >> I > >> >> provided.  I don't > >> >> > >> expect bloggers or techies > to be > >> >> > >> >>>>> any > different, > >> as if > >> >> being techie > >> >> > >> makes one a saint. > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> Some > of those > >> bloggers > >> >> are purely > >> >> > >> commercial or completely > neglected, > >> >> > >> >>>>> I'm > sure. > >> Some of > >> >> the groups or > >> >> > >> events or sites listed are > lousy, > >> >> > >> >>>>> boring > or poor > >> marketing > >> >> excuses to > >> >> > >> sell something.  Some are > not out > >> >> > >> >>>>> to > create > >> community but > >> >> to build a > >> >> > >> "kingdom" for their own > benefit. > >> >> > >> >>>>> They > are the > >> duds. > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> Let's > look at a > >> few > >> >> positives: > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> - Read > the > >> Gangplank > >> >> Manifesto on > >> >> > >> their home page at > >> >> > >> >>>>> http://gangplankhq.com.  That looks like > >> >> > >> a great articulation of > their > >> >> > >> >>>>> goals > and > >> purpose. > >> >> Ones I strongly > >> >> > >> support! > >> >> > >> >>>>> -- > Read how > >> the > >> >> manifesto came to be > >> >> > >> on Derek's blog at > >> >> > >> >>>>> http://derekneighbors.com/2009/07/collaborative-writing-or-how-the-gangplank-manifesto-was-written/ > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> - > Gangplank has > >> hosted > >> >> or is hosting: > >> >> > >> >>>>> -- > MobiFest - a > >> day long > >> >> conference on > >> >> > >> developing for phones like > >> >> > >> >>>>> iPhone > or > >> Android > >> >> > >> >>>>> -- > Gangplank > >> Jr. - a 2-3 > >> >> hour Saturday > >> >> > >> event for kids 5-15 to > learn > >> >> > >> >>>>> > programming > >> concepts > >> >> > >> >>>>> -- > Wordpress > >> training > >> >> classes for > >> >> > >> minimal cost or no-cost > for > >> non-profit orgs > >> >> > >> >>>>> -- > Laid Off > >> Camp - a day > >> >> long > >> >> > >> conference on job searching > and > >> >> entreprenuership > >> >> > >> >>>>> -- > Barcamp > >> Pheonix - a > >> >> day long > >> >> > >> conference on software > development > >> >> > >> >>>>> -- > TEDx night - > >> Watch > >> >> ted.com videos > >> >> > >> and discuss them > >> >> > >> >>>>> -- > OpenPhoenix > >> - a night > >> >> of open mic > >> >> > >> music and entertainment > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> - The > last http://desertcodecamp.com/ was held on June 13th and > >> >> > >> nearly > >> >> > >> >>>>> filled > DeVry's > >> Phoenix > >> >> campus with > >> >> > >> developers talking about > code or > >> >> > >> >>>>> making > code. > >> Free > >> >> lunch of pizza and > >> >> > >> sub sandwiches was provided > too. > >> >> > >> >>>>>  Put > together > >> by > >> >> volunteers. > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> - If > you're > >> into > >> >> Microsoft based > >> >> > >> development tech, the > people who > >> >> > >> >>>>> > maintain the http://azgroups.com site do an annual all-day event at > >> >> > >> >>>>> venues > like the > >> Orphium > >> >> Theater and at > >> >> > >> no cost to attendees.  > Fine, > >> >> > >> >>>>> it's > marketing > >> for MS > >> >> but it's put on > >> >> > >> by volunteers here in the > valley > >> >> > >> >>>>> and a > great way > >> for > >> >> people to learn > >> >> > >> about things that improve > their > >> >> > >> >>>>> career > skills. > >> >> > >> >>>>> (http://www.componentart.com/BLOGS/milos/archive/2009/06/02/scott-guthrie-event-2009-phoenix-az.aspx) > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> - The > local > >> Ruby On > >> >> Rails group has > >> >> > >> monthly meetings with > around 30 > >> >> > >> >>>>> > regularly in > >> >> attendance. > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> - The > Java > >> group is also > >> >> well attended > >> >> > >> every month. > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> - The > third http://podcampaz.com/ is coming up in November, put on > >> >> > >> by > >> >> > >> >>>>> > voluteers at no > >> cost > >> >> (donation > >> >> > >> requested) to attendees.  > Had about > >> 350 > >> >> > >> >>>>> people > attend > >> last year > >> >> (if I recall) > >> >> > >> for two days of > conference. > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> - The > http://azentrepreneurship.com/ conference will be in > >> >> > >> November > >> >> > >> >>>>> for > the forth > >> >> year.  This one costs > >> >> > >> $100+ but should be as > well > >> >> > >> >>>>> > attended as > >> last year > >> >> with 200+ > >> >> > >> people.  Funded and > organized in > >> part > >> >> > >> >>>>> by a > local > >> venture > >> >> capital group. > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> - The > first http://ignitephoenix.com event was held a year ago > >> >> with > >> >> > >> a > >> >> > >> >>>>> little > over 100 > >> in > >> >> attendance and has > >> >> > >> grown to fill the 600 seat > >> >> > >> >>>>> > Theather at > >> Tempe Center > >> >> for the Arts > >> >> > >> back in June.  The > connections > >> >> > >> >>>>> made > there live > >> well > >> >> past the event. > >> >> > >> >>>>> -- Oh, > a city > >> council > >> >> member and the > >> >> > >> mayor of Tempe spoke this > last > >> >> > >> >>>>> time, > though he > >> was a > >> >> bit silly trying > >> >> > >> to be Tempe exclusive.  > That > >> >> > >> >>>>> seems > to be at > >> least > >> >> verbal political > >> >> > >> support. > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> - The > second > >> ABLEConf on > >> >> FS/OSS is > >> >> > >> being planned for October > and > >> >> > >> >>>>> should > be > >> better than > >> >> last year. (Go > >> >> > >> Hans and team!) > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> I'm > not going > >> to go on, > >> >> though I could > >> >> > >> point out several purely > social > >> >> > >> >>>>> events > like http://phoenixfridaynights.com/, it's east and west > >> >> > >> valley > >> >> > >> >>>>> > analogs, East > >> Valley > >> >> Thursday Morning > >> >> > >> breakfasts, Tempe Geeks > Lunch, > >> >> > >> >>>>> South > Valley > >> Geek Meet > >> >> and Eat and > >> >> > >> Gangplank's Brown Gag > lunch > >> >> > >> >>>>> > presentations > >> every > >> >> Wednesday. > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> Now, > having > >> said all of > >> >> that "giddy > >> >> > >> blind optimism," I'd like > to > >> >> > >> >>>>> > understand how > >> the above > >> >> does not > >> >> > >> address the efforts of the > past or > >> >> > >> >>>>> > provide > >> improvement over > >> >> past efforts. > >> >> > >>  What are the real needs > of the > >> >> > >> >>>>> > community, if > >> not some > >> >> of the above? > >> >> > >>  What would you suggest?  > How can > >> >> > >> >>>>> PLUG > be a part > >> of it? > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> Alan > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> On > Fri, Jul 31, > >> 2009 at > >> >> 1:34 PM, > >> >> > >> Joshua Zeidner > >> >> > >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >>>>>>  > Alan, > >> >> > >> >>>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>>>  >   while > >> I > >> >> appreciate your post, > >> >> > >> and anyone who is making a > sincere > >> >> > >> >>>>>> > effort to > >> build > >> >> community in > >> >> > >> Phoenix... be warned.  > There are > >> some > >> >> > >> >>>>>> > small > >> groups who > >> >> periodically > >> >> > >> spawn off new 'communities' > every > >> month > >> >> > >> >>>>>> or > so. > >> Look > >> >> closely and you see > >> >> > >> the same few people with > reused > >> >> > >> >>>>>> > marketing > >> >> recipes.  Lots of blog > >> >> > >> and not too much community > I'm > >> >> > >> >>>>>> > afraid. > >> Their > >> >> efforts amount to > >> >> > >> some simple branding and > putting up > >> a > >> >> > >> >>>>>> > blog. > >> While > >> >> these things are not > >> >> > >> really particularily > offensive to > >> >> > >> >>>>>> > me, they do > >> somewhat > >> >> detract from > >> >> > >> interest in the real needs > of the > >> >> > >> >>>>>> > community > >> >> here.  Some of these > >> >> > >> people are just outright > idiotic > >> and > >> >> > >> >>>>>> > cannot deal > >> with > >> >> existing > >> >> > >> structure and refuse to > accept the > >> history > >> >> > >> >>>>>> of > efforts > >> in the > >> >> past.  They > >> >> > >> lack any articulation of > their goals > >> and > >> >> > >> >>>>>> > purpose. > >> Often > >> >> times they have > >> >> > >> trouble organizing even > small > >> groups > >> >> > >> >>>>>> of > 2 or 3. > >> >> Dont forget we've had > >> >> > >> a tech incubator here.  > Lets not > >> >> > >> >>>>>> > smack down > >> sincere > >> >> criticism in > >> >> > >> favor of giddy blind > optimism, > >> >> > >> >>>>>> > remember > >> you can't > >> >> improve without > >> >> > >> criticism.  I would take > these > >> >> > >> >>>>>> > people much > >> more > >> >> seriously if they > >> >> > >> addressed the efforts of > the past > >> >> > >> >>>>>> > and > >> perhaps > >> >> suggested how they are > >> >> > >> going to improve on them, > or > >> >> > >> >>>>>> > perhaps > >> indicate > >> >> what has changed > >> >> > >> that will make them a > success. > >> >> > >> >>>>>> > Maybe > >> seeking real > >> >> political > >> >> > >> support would gain some > legitimacy. > >> >> > >> >>>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>>>  >   on > >> the > >> >> positive side, I think > >> >> > >> Phoenix will attract a lot > of > >> >> > >> >>>>>> > technology > >> business > >> >> due to its > >> >> > >> relative low cost and no > doubt you > >> will > >> >> > >> >>>>>> > start to > >> see > >> >> community > >> >> > >> infrastructure grow.  We > are seeing > >> some > >> >> real > >> >> > >> >>>>>> > urban > >> development > >> >> happening in Phx > >> >> > >> metro which has me very > excited. > >> I > >> >> > >> >>>>>> > think when > >> the > >> >> macroeconomic > >> >> > >> problems are sorted out we > will see > >> >> > >> >>>>>> > downtown > >> Phx > >> >> bloom.  Im hoping > >> >> > >> that the average Arizonan > gets > >> involved > >> >> > >> >>>>>> in > the > >> political > >> >> process and make > >> >> > >> sure that the corruption > stays out > >> >> > >> >>>>>> of > city and > >> state > >> >> politics. > >> >> > >>  Coming from NY, Im > recognizing a > >> lot > >> >> of > >> >> > >> >>>>>> > positive > >> development > >> >> trends in Phx > >> >> > >> metro. > >> >> > >> >>>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>>>  > -jmz > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > --------------------------------------------------- > >> >> > >> >>>>> > PLUG-discuss > >> mailing > >> >> list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > >> >> > >> >>>>> To > subscribe, > >> >> unsubscribe, or to > >> >> > >> change your mail settings: > >> >> > >> >>>>> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>> > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > --------------------------------------------------- > >> >> > >> >> PLUG-discuss > mailing list - > >> PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > >> >> > >> >> To subscribe, > unsubscribe, > >> or to > >> >> change your mail > >> >> > >> settings: > >> >> > >> >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > --------------------------------------------------- > >> >> > >> > PLUG-discuss mailing > list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > >> >> > >> > To subscribe, > unsubscribe, or > >> to change > >> >> your mail > >> >> > >> settings: > >> >> > >> > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > --------------------------------------------------- > >> >> > >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - 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