new thread: QoS, latency, bandwidth and the FCC/net neutrality debate

Sat Nov 25 22:30:25 MST 2017

Here is a good presentation by Bryan Lunduke on NN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csK3KspB-6A

On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 10:24 PM, Herminio Hernandez Jr. <
herminio.hernandezjr at gmail.com> wrote:

> My point was those abuses were addressed without the need of NN in the
> past. NN IMO was a too heavy handed and misguided approach to a situation
> which the previous system took care of.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Nov 25, 2017, at 9:52 PM, Brian Cluff <brian at snaptek.com> wrote:
>
> I think you forget that the neutrality was put into place specifically to
> deal with the network providers messing with netflix among other service's
> data in favor of their own services.  That IS how we dealt with it.
>
> You keep talking about being able to get optimized services, but those are
> legal and common now.  Getting rid of net neutrality won't enable those.
> Throttling your competitors services to the point of degrading their
> service isn't an optimized service.
>
> Brian Cluff
>
>
> On 11/25/2017 07:24 PM, Herminio Hernandez, Jr. wrote:
>
> I do understand those concerns, but those types of abuses have existed in
> the past and were dealt with before there was Net Neutrality. I do really
> think that the bigger threat from the big content providers and not the
> ISPs.
>
> On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 7:12 PM, <techlists at phpcoderusa.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I hear you.  If everyone would play fair I would think slicing up data
>> usage is fair.  I watch a lot of YouTube, however I do not need 4k.  My
>> main concern is for businesses who use the Internet to market and do
>> business.  As you probably know there is a move from brick and mortar to
>> online stores and more so to selling on Amazon.
>>
>> If there is no net neutrality and GoDaddy invests in timewarner, then
>> timewarner could keep people from seeing your website that is hosted on
>> HostGator. Then Godaddy could coerce you into moving to GoDaddy or pay a
>> fee to GoDaddy or timewarner.
>>
>> I see some serious antitrust coming. We need to get ICAAN back and we
>> need to keep the Internet the Wild West to some degree. I do see Google is
>> headed for some antitrust law suites, and maybe Government oversight.
>> Government oversight is scary given how corrupt our Government is.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2017-11-24 12:31, Herminio Hernandez, Jr. wrote:
>>
>> I will start with some thoughts on why I find the NN debate troubling.
>> First there is a technical misunderstanding. NN is built on the idea that
>> ISPs should treat all traffic equally. This concept is simply unrealistic.
>> Bandwidth is a limited resource there is only so much data that a Ethernet
>> port can transmit and receive. Also things like MTU size, latency, jitter
>> all impact the reliable transmission of data which bring me to my other
>> point. Not all traffic is the same. There are night and day differences
>> between TCP and UDP traffic. For example UDP (which is what most voice and
>> video is) is faster than TCP. The drawback to this is that UDP does not
>> have the recovery features that TCP has in case of packet loss (ie sequence
>> number and acknowledgment packets). There UDP applications are more prone
>> to suffer when latency is high or links get saturated. To overcome this
>> network engineer implement prioritization and traffic shaping to ensure
>> these services are not impacted.
>>
>> As more content is consumed such as 4K video on the internet, the need
>> for traffic shaping will only increase. Netflix already has the ability to
>> push 100Gbps from their servers. That is a ton of data that needs to be
>> prioritized by ISPs. This is not free there are serious costs involved in
>> man hours and infrastructure. Someone needs to bear that cost. This is why
>> I am not opposed to fast lanes. If Netflix is going to have ISPs ensure all
>> of the massive amounts to data are push is delivered efficiently, then the
>> ISPs should be free to charge a premium for this service. Netflix does not
>> want to bear this cost, hense their support for Net Neutrality. They want
>> the ISPs to bear the cost, but then result of that is we bear the cost via
>> data caps.
>>
>> When you strip away all the slogans it all comes down to money and
>> control. Data will be traffic shaped it is just who decides how unelected
>> government bureaucrats pushing some public policy or market forces.
>>
>> Something else to consider a lot not all but a lot of the very same
>> people who cry that the end of Net Neutrality will be end of free speech
>> (no more free and open internet) have no issue saying Twiiter, Facebook,
>> and Google (since they are 'private companies') have the right demonetize,
>> obscure, or even ban individuals who express ideas that other deem
>> "offensive". How is that promoting a "Free and Open Internet"?
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 24, 2017 at 10:24 AM, Eric Oyen <eric.oyen at icloud.com> wrote:
>>
>>> well, as someone else suggested, a new thread.
>>>
>>> so, shall we start the discussion?
>>>
>>> ok, as mentioned, bandwidth is a limited resource. the question is How
>>> limited?
>>>
>>> Then there is the question: can an ISP curtail certain types of traffic
>>> (null route it, delay it, other bandwidth shaping routines)? How far can
>>> they go?
>>>
>>> What really is net neutrality?
>>>
>>> lastly, what part does the FCC play, or should they?
>>>
>>> so, any thoughts on the above questions?
>>>
>>> -eric
>>> from the central offices of the Technomage Guild, you got questions, we
>>> got answers Dept.
>>>
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