<div dir="ltr">Here is a good presentation by Bryan Lunduke on NN <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csK3KspB-6A">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csK3KspB-6A</a></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 10:24 PM, Herminio Hernandez Jr. <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:herminio.hernandezjr@gmail.com" target="_blank">herminio.hernandezjr@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">My point was those abuses were addressed without the need of NN in the past. NN IMO was a too heavy handed and misguided approach to a situation which the previous system took care of. <br><br><div id="m_-6163154052005114724AppleMailSignature">Sent from my iPhone</div><div><div class="h5"><div><br>On Nov 25, 2017, at 9:52 PM, Brian Cluff <<a href="mailto:brian@snaptek.com" target="_blank">brian@snaptek.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
I think you forget that the neutrality was put into place
specifically to deal with the network providers messing with netflix
among other service's data in favor of their own services. That IS
how we dealt with it.<br>
<br>
You keep talking about being able to get optimized services, but
those are legal and common now. Getting rid of net neutrality won't
enable those. Throttling your competitors services to the point of
degrading their service isn't an optimized service.<br>
<br>
Brian Cluff<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="m_-6163154052005114724moz-cite-prefix">On 11/25/2017 07:24 PM, Herminio
Hernandez, Jr. wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">I do understand those concerns, but those types of
abuses have existed in the past and were dealt with before there
was Net Neutrality. I do really think that the bigger threat
from the big content providers and not the ISPs. </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 7:12 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:techlists@phpcoderusa.com" target="_blank">techlists@phpcoderusa.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif">
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I hear you. If everyone would play fair I would think
slicing up data usage is fair. I watch a lot of
YouTube, however I do not need 4k. My main concern is
for businesses who use the Internet to market and do
business. As you probably know there is a move from
brick and mortar to online stores and more so to selling
on Amazon. </p>
<p>If there is no net neutrality and GoDaddy invests in
timewarner, then timewarner could keep people from
seeing your website that is hosted on HostGator. Then
Godaddy could coerce you into moving to GoDaddy or pay a
fee to GoDaddy or timewarner.</p>
<p>I see some serious antitrust coming. We need to get
ICAAN back and we need to keep the Internet the Wild
West to some degree. I do see Google is headed for some
antitrust law suites, and maybe Government oversight.
Government oversight is scary given how corrupt our
Government is.</p>
<div>
<div class="m_-6163154052005114724h5">
<p><br>
</p>
<div> </div>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>On 2017-11-24 12:31, Herminio Hernandez, Jr. wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding:0 0.4em;border-left:#1010ff 2px solid;margin:0">
<div dir="ltr">I will start with some thoughts on
why I find the NN debate troubling. First there is
a technical misunderstanding. NN is built on the
idea that ISPs should treat all traffic equally.
This concept is simply unrealistic. Bandwidth is a
limited resource there is only so much data that a
Ethernet port can transmit and receive. Also
things like MTU size, latency, jitter all impact
the reliable transmission of data which bring me
to my other point. Not all traffic is the same.
There are night and day differences between TCP
and UDP traffic. For example UDP (which is what
most voice and video is) is faster than TCP. The
drawback to this is that UDP does not have the
recovery features that TCP has in case of packet
loss (ie sequence number and acknowledgment
packets). There UDP applications are more prone to
suffer when latency is high or links get
saturated. To overcome this network engineer
implement prioritization and traffic shaping to
ensure these services are not impacted.
<div> </div>
<div>As more content is consumed such as 4K video
on the internet, the need for traffic shaping
will only increase. Netflix already has the
ability to push 100Gbps from their servers. That
is a ton of data that needs to be prioritized by
ISPs. This is not free there are serious costs
involved in man hours and infrastructure.
Someone needs to bear that cost. This is why I
am not opposed to fast lanes. If Netflix is
going to have ISPs ensure all of the massive
amounts to data are push is delivered
efficiently, then the ISPs should be free to
charge a premium for this service. Netflix does
not want to bear this cost, hense their support
for Net Neutrality. They want the ISPs to bear
the cost, but then result of that is we bear the
cost via data caps. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>When you strip away all the slogans it all
comes down to money and control. Data will be
traffic shaped it is just who decides how
unelected government bureaucrats pushing some
public policy or market forces.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Something else to consider a lot not all but
a lot of the very same people who cry that the
end of Net Neutrality will be end of free speech
(no more free and open internet) have no issue
saying Twiiter, Facebook, and Google (since they
are 'private companies') have the right
demonetize, obscure, or even ban individuals who
express ideas that other deem "offensive". How
is that promoting a "Free and Open Internet"?</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 24, 2017 at
10:24 AM, Eric Oyen <span><<a href="mailto:eric.oyen@icloud.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">eric.oyen@icloud.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">well, as someone else
suggested, a new thread.<br>
<br>
so, shall we start the discussion?<br>
<br>
ok, as mentioned, bandwidth is a limited
resource. the question is How limited?<br>
<br>
Then there is the question: can an ISP curtail
certain types of traffic (null route it, delay
it, other bandwidth shaping routines)? How far
can they go?<br>
<br>
What really is net neutrality?<br>
<br>
lastly, what part does the FCC play, or should
they?<br>
<br>
so, any thoughts on the above questions?<br>
<br>
-eric<br>
from the central offices of the Technomage
Guild, you got questions, we got answers Dept.<br>
<br>
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