new thread: QoS, latency, bandwidth and the FCC/net neutrality debate

Sat Nov 25 22:24:28 MST 2017

My point was those abuses were addressed without the need of NN in the past. NN IMO was a too heavy handed and misguided approach to a situation which the previous system took care of. 

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> On Nov 25, 2017, at 9:52 PM, Brian Cluff <brian at snaptek.com> wrote:
> 
> I think you forget that the neutrality was put into place specifically to deal with the network providers messing with netflix among other service's data in favor of their own services.  That IS how we dealt with it.
> 
> You keep talking about being able to get optimized services, but those are legal and common now.  Getting rid of net neutrality won't enable those.  Throttling your competitors services to the point of degrading their service isn't an optimized service.
> 
> Brian Cluff
> 
> 
>> On 11/25/2017 07:24 PM, Herminio Hernandez, Jr. wrote:
>> I do understand those concerns, but those types of abuses have existed in the past and were dealt with before there was Net Neutrality. I do really think that the bigger threat from the big content providers and not the ISPs.  
>> 
>>> On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 7:12 PM, <techlists at phpcoderusa.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I hear you.  If everyone would play fair I would think slicing up data usage is fair.  I watch a lot of YouTube, however I do not need 4k.  My main concern is for businesses who use the Internet to market and do business.  As you probably know there is a move from brick and mortar to online stores and more so to selling on Amazon.   
>>> 
>>> If there is no net neutrality and GoDaddy invests in timewarner, then timewarner could keep people from seeing your website that is hosted on HostGator. Then Godaddy could coerce you into moving to GoDaddy or pay a fee to GoDaddy or timewarner.
>>> 
>>> I see some serious antitrust coming. We need to get ICAAN back and we need to keep the Internet the Wild West to some degree. I do see Google is headed for some antitrust law suites, and maybe Government oversight. Government oversight is scary given how corrupt our Government is.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>> On 2017-11-24 12:31, Herminio Hernandez, Jr. wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I will start with some thoughts on why I find the NN debate troubling. First there is a technical misunderstanding. NN is built on the idea that ISPs should treat all traffic equally. This concept is simply unrealistic. Bandwidth is a limited resource there is only so much data that a Ethernet port can transmit and receive. Also things like MTU size, latency, jitter all impact the reliable transmission of data which bring me to my other point. Not all traffic is the same. There are night and day differences between TCP and UDP traffic. For example UDP (which is what most voice and video is) is faster than TCP. The drawback to this is that UDP does not have the recovery features that TCP has in case of packet loss (ie sequence number and acknowledgment packets). There UDP applications are more prone to suffer when latency is high or links get saturated. To overcome this network engineer implement prioritization and traffic shaping to ensure these services are not impacted. 
>>>>  
>>>> As more content is consumed such as 4K video on the internet, the need for traffic shaping will only increase. Netflix already has the ability to push 100Gbps from their servers. That is a ton of data that needs to be prioritized by ISPs. This is not free there are serious costs involved in man hours and infrastructure. Someone needs to bear that cost. This is why I am not opposed to fast lanes. If Netflix is going to have ISPs ensure all of the massive amounts to data are push is delivered efficiently, then the ISPs should be free to charge a premium for this service. Netflix does not want to bear this cost, hense their support for Net Neutrality. They want the ISPs to bear the cost, but then result of that is we bear the cost via data caps. 
>>>>  
>>>> When you strip away all the slogans it all comes down to money and control. Data will be                         traffic shaped it is just who decides how unelected government bureaucrats pushing some public policy or market forces.
>>>>  
>>>> Something else to consider a lot not all but a lot of the very same people who cry that the end of Net Neutrality will be end of free speech (no more free and open internet) have no issue                         saying Twiiter, Facebook, and Google (since they are 'private companies') have the right demonetize, obscure, or even ban individuals who express ideas that other deem "offensive". How is that promoting a "Free and Open Internet"?
>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 24, 2017 at 10:24 AM, Eric Oyen <eric.oyen at icloud.com> wrote:
>>>>> well, as someone else suggested, a new thread.
>>>>> 
>>>>> so, shall we start the discussion?
>>>>> 
>>>>> ok, as mentioned, bandwidth is a limited resource. the question is How limited?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Then there is the question: can an ISP curtail certain types of traffic (null route it, delay it, other bandwidth shaping routines)? How far can they go?
>>>>> 
>>>>> What really is net neutrality?
>>>>> 
>>>>> lastly, what part does the FCC play, or should they?
>>>>> 
>>>>> so, any thoughts on the above questions?
>>>>> 
>>>>> -eric
>>>>> from the central offices of the Technomage Guild, you got questions, we got answers Dept.
>>>>> 
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