Happy retirement!!
On 2025-01-19 19:23, William Hooper via PLUG-discuss wrote:
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> On Jan 19, 2025, at 12:39, plug-discuss-request@lists.phxlinux.org
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> 1. Re: WordPress Move to JavaScript (James Dugger)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2025 02:15:37 -0700
> From: James Dugger <james.dugger@gmail.com>
> To: Main PLUG discussion list <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>
> Subject: Re: WordPress Move to JavaScript
> Message-ID:
> <CAOXWiHi_QgwMHkfDCgNb0rhsRnAHaQ9+tvN+DuRBfMKzgcU2yw@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I know this is old but thought I would add some perspective.
> WordPress'
> plugin ecosystem is too big. Its primary audience is what I call site
> builders - individuals with some coding experience mainly in html, and
> CSS
> and maybe a bit of javascript's jquery library. Although that latter is
> probably pushing it. I went to WordCamp 8 years ago in Phoenix as a
> GoDaddy
> rep. Most of the people and even the talks were geared towards
> non-coding
> professionals. Most people there wouldn't have been able to explain
> what
> an object was in any language and couldn't blueprint a class
> declaration or
> any of its mechanics.
>
> Where do they go - If they don't want to pay for real development they
> head
> to Squarespace or Weebly or other no-code solutions.
>
> Most of the use cases for WordPress I am familiar with are for small
> businesses. Most hosting companies have auto site builders that
> construct
> the website in 30 seconds. But then people quickly get bogged down in
> even
> finding, picking, installing and implementing the plugins correctly
> after
> the initial build. Often they are left with hacked, or bloated sites
> that
> leave them exposed and filled with malware. I helped an agency clean
> up a
> WordPress website for a plastic surgeon where the MySQL database had
> been
> injected with Russian phishing data. The site was 5 years old and I
> found
> over 150k nefarious entries that had to be cleaned up and removed.
>
> Later I worked for a tech firm that consults for large corporate
> clients
> that use WordPress for limited sites, like a digital magazine for high
> end
> real estate holdings, almost like a brochure version of Architectural
> Digest. In these cases WP works because we would limit the number of
> plugins and user interaction with the site. We could have easily built
> these sites without WP and often did, but if they were going to
> maintain
> the site the contracts would dictate that we had to build it in WP.
>
> I think that the current metrics are around 43% of the web uses
> WordPress.
> I would estimate that easily 70% of the database and the codebase in WP
> is
> for managing the application and has little to do with the actual
> visual
> website that the general public see and interact with - excluding
> ecommerce
> and subscription-based web apps that need user account transactions. A
> typical WP site is over 1 million lines of code.
>
> But when the same companies hired us to build enterprise-based
> solutions
> and wanted a PHP-based web application the choices were usually Drupal
> for
> sites that needed a CMS and Laravel for sites that didn't. Even if they
> wanted a SPA (single page application) like React, Angular, or Vue, we
> recommended the backend be built in Laravel and not Express (Node).
> Drupal
> is based on the Symfony PHP framework and Laravel hooks into it.
> Symfony is
> by far the most well supported open source PHP solution. The irony is
> that
> there are enough good libraries both on the JavaScript and PHP that are
> better written, more secure, and just as easy to implement than going
> to a
> WP-based approach. Plus I have to wonder what is going on with
> Automatic
> and WP Engine and what is the future of WordPress.
>
> For sites that need to be sped up and are limited to remain on older
> server
> instances. My advice is to simplify the code base as much as possible.
> So
> roll your own framework or use a lightweight MVC framework. Turn on
> opcode
> (APC) and object caching (Redis) and if you are using Apache as your
> Webserver play with the MaxClient settings to dial in the amount of
> preforking that Apache does. Setting the number too high in MySQL
> will
> cause thrashing when the database constantly has to write data out to
> the
> disk to clear up memory to add threads. Or switch to Nginx as the
> webserver.
>
> Package These up in a Docker container or containers (web server,
> database
> server) running a lightweight Linux instance and you have a portable
> web
> application that can be installed anywhere and spun up in seconds.
>
> On Fri, Nov 15, 2024 at 12:17?PM Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>> Thank You David,
>>
>> I agree WordPress is bloated and it is one-size-fits-all. I saw a
>> video
>> recently that WordPress has 40% market share.
>>
>> I am hoping to build my own infrastructure within a year and a half.
>>
>> I think potentially the back end JS issue is my problem. That is why
>> I
>> mentioned my daily driver is a 10 year old Dell with an i5 and 16G of
>> RAM. It is running an SSD that helps. Seems 32G is the minimum
>> now....Yikes
>>
>> Another issue is Google has removed 12 of my articles because of
>> redirects. I've looked at it several times and cannot figure it out.
>> I
>> did not add the redirects. I wonder if it is WordPress that is doing
>> something.
>>
>> Other than a more powerful CPU and more RAM what is the solution? Is
>> there a point when people start to exit WordPress, and where do they
>> go?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2024-11-13 12:47, David Schwartz via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>>> Javascript runs in the browser. Most issues I hear about and
>>> encounter
>>> myself end up being browser-related.
>>>
>>> You mentined all of the things that aren?t connected to JS, and did
>>> not
>>> mention the one(s) that are. JS is the primary source of problems
>>> today. And hackers that break into the back-end.
>>>
>>> I operate almost exclusively on Macs and my Android phone, and I?ve
>>> got
>>> between three and six browsers on each one. None of them work the
>>> same
>>> ? which is to say, when I run into a problem on one, I can usually
>>> solve it by switching to another browser. Every week it?s something
>>> different.
>>>
>>> The source of the problem is not worth my time to figure it out, and
>>> it?s really easy to switch to another browser.
>>>
>>> Don?t blame php or the back-end for quirks that are endemic to JS
>>> running in one specific browser. Even updates of the same browser can
>>> behave differently. And the behavior on the same browser can change
>>> from one day to the next, or one hour to the next. Nobody is changing
>>> the back-end that frequently, I can assure you. It?s the libraries
>>> the
>>> pages are loading up, or the code the site?s developers changed last
>>> night.
>>>
>>> I?ve been writing code in Delphi using TMS WEB Core, which is
>>> available
>>> both as a Delphi addon and a standalone package that runs in Visual
>>> Studio Code. It takes Delphi code (Object Pascal) and translates it
>>> into JS and packages it up so it runs in the browser. NONE of it is
>>> running in the back-end! It?s 100% browser based. And 100% of the
>>> weird
>>> issues I have are all browser related. Sure, there are bugs in the
>>> platform, but they are typically reproduced the same in every
>>> browser.
>>> Browser issues show up differently in one browser, maybe two, but not
>>> in all of them.
>>>
>>> A lot of browsers are using the Chromium engine, so quirks in it can
>>> be
>>> reflected elsewhere, but they usually need to be running the same
>>> version of the engine for them to show up.
>>>
>>> It used to be that you had to test software on different machines
>>> from
>>> different vendors, different versions of Windows or MacOS, and it
>>> cost
>>> you a lot of money to have all of those combinations of software and
>>> hardware available for testing.
>>>
>>> Today you just need to test on one hardware platform with variations
>>> of
>>> browsers loaded on it, probably running in separate VMs or docker
>>> images to ensure you test with different versions of Chromium and
>>> whatnot.
>>>
>>> Same old sh*t, different approach.
>>>
>>> As far as WP goes, I think it?s internal architecture has become
>>> obsolete. Layers and layers of crap have been added to convert
>>> asynchronous events into something that serializes them, and the
>>> people
>>> writing plugins and themes are mostly inexperienced coders who don?t
>>> have a clue what?s what. Meanwhile there are people who have nothing
>>> else to do with their life but find ways to sneak into cracks and
>>> crevices in the back-end, and sometimes wide-open doors, left by said
>>> inexperienced coders who didn?t do a good job testing their code. ?It
>>> works! Ship it!?
>>>
>>> The UX/UI logic is all being pushed out to the browser, and the
>>> business logic is being hidden behind REST APIs. I can build
>>> something
>>> in TMS WEB Core way faster than it takes to build in WP ? it runs
>>> faster, is more solid, and is far easier to maintain. That can
>>> probably
>>> be said of most JS-based UX/UI dev tools today.
>>>
>>> The problem with Wordpress is ? it?s Wordpress. The UX/UI is tightly
>>> coupled to the back-end because all of the user?s state is managed in
>>> the back-end. And it?s not an API, but just a huge mess of functions
>>> that are designed to be hijacked by programmers to get it to do
>>> pretty
>>> much anything out of the ordinary ? if you can?t get it to support
>>> something in the UI, you need to build a plugin or theme to add it.
>>> And
>>> that code lives on the BACK-END and is susceptible to all of the
>>> myriad
>>> ways there are for hackers to throw sand in the gears. The whole damn
>>> platform is open to anybody who wants to poke and prod it?s guts!
>>> They
>>> even added an API but nobody uses it.
>>>
>>> If I need something to work a certain way using WEB Core, I can
>>> easily
>>> program it. I hide necessary business logic behind an authenticated
>>> REST API and the JS in the browser manages it all. The events are all
>>> asynchronous and I don?t have to worry about someone hacking into the
>>> back-end code and hijacking everything. I can build the services in
>>> any
>>> language and host it on any platform I want.
>>>
>>> In WP, you have to build a plugin and plan to maintain it as further
>>> WP
>>> updates will very likely break it in some unexpected way. Or if not
>>> the
>>> WP code than maybe one of the UI libs you?re working with change and
>>> someone updated a theme that loads a different version and screws up
>>> your code.
>>>
>>> IMHO, WP is just a big fat ugly mess that only gets worse over time.
>>>
>>> Just switch to a no-code / low-code solution that lets you
>>> custom-build
>>> what you need, and that isn?t dependent on dozens of things that can
>>> change from week to week and month to month as the underlying
>>> platform
>>> is patched to fix newly-discovered exploits and the UI libs get
>>> updated
>>> by updates in the plugins and themes.
>>>
>>> -David Schwartz
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Nov 13, 2024, at 9:12 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss
>>>> <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> This is kind of off topic, however WordPress is Open Source and I
>>>> would expect that the vast majority of WordPress is run on LAMP
>>>> servers.
>>>>
>>>> My daily driver is a 10 year old Dell that has an i5 with 16G of RAM
>>>> that runs Kubuntu 24.04lts.
>>>>
>>>> I am running a blog using WordPress that is hosted on an Ubuntu
>>>> server.
>>>>
>>>> I am having issues with the WordPress Gutenberg back end. I cannot
>>>> get it to do the things I want to do like bold text. At times is is
>>>> sluggish. I've read that WordPress has a 10 year plan to move to
>>>> JavaScript. There is not a lot of info available so it is unclear
>>>> if
>>>> the PHP code will be replaced as well. If WordPress replaces the
>>>> PHP
>>>> back end I will leave WordPress. As it is WordPress is hanging by a
>>>> thread.
>>>>
>>>> These problems are new. I am also having formatting issues which
>>>> might
>>>> be due to my theme.
>>>>
>>>> Is anyone having these issues or maybe other issues with WordPress?
>>>>
>>>> Ultimately I may create my own infrastructure or start building my
>>>> own
>>>> theme.
>>>>
>>>> Any feedback is very welcome.
>>>>
>>>> Keith
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------
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>
>
> --
> James
>
> *Linkedin <http://www.linkedin.com/pub/james-h-dugger/15/64b/74a/>*
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