Happy retirement!! On 2025-01-19 19:23, William Hooper via PLUG-discuss wrote: > unsubscribe please > retiring > > > from my iPhone 9 > > On Jan 19, 2025, at 12:39, plug-discuss-request@lists.phxlinux.org > wrote: > > Send PLUG-discuss mailing list submissions to > plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > plug-discuss-request@lists.phxlinux.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > plug-discuss-owner@lists.phxlinux.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of PLUG-discuss digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: WordPress Move to JavaScript (James Dugger) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2025 02:15:37 -0700 > From: James Dugger > To: Main PLUG discussion list > Subject: Re: WordPress Move to JavaScript > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I know this is old but thought I would add some perspective. > WordPress' > plugin ecosystem is too big. Its primary audience is what I call site > builders - individuals with some coding experience mainly in html, and > CSS > and maybe a bit of javascript's jquery library. Although that latter is > probably pushing it. I went to WordCamp 8 years ago in Phoenix as a > GoDaddy > rep. Most of the people and even the talks were geared towards > non-coding > professionals. Most people there wouldn't have been able to explain > what > an object was in any language and couldn't blueprint a class > declaration or > any of its mechanics. > > Where do they go - If they don't want to pay for real development they > head > to Squarespace or Weebly or other no-code solutions. > > Most of the use cases for WordPress I am familiar with are for small > businesses. Most hosting companies have auto site builders that > construct > the website in 30 seconds. But then people quickly get bogged down in > even > finding, picking, installing and implementing the plugins correctly > after > the initial build. Often they are left with hacked, or bloated sites > that > leave them exposed and filled with malware. I helped an agency clean > up a > WordPress website for a plastic surgeon where the MySQL database had > been > injected with Russian phishing data. The site was 5 years old and I > found > over 150k nefarious entries that had to be cleaned up and removed. > > Later I worked for a tech firm that consults for large corporate > clients > that use WordPress for limited sites, like a digital magazine for high > end > real estate holdings, almost like a brochure version of Architectural > Digest. In these cases WP works because we would limit the number of > plugins and user interaction with the site. We could have easily built > these sites without WP and often did, but if they were going to > maintain > the site the contracts would dictate that we had to build it in WP. > > I think that the current metrics are around 43% of the web uses > WordPress. > I would estimate that easily 70% of the database and the codebase in WP > is > for managing the application and has little to do with the actual > visual > website that the general public see and interact with - excluding > ecommerce > and subscription-based web apps that need user account transactions. A > typical WP site is over 1 million lines of code. > > But when the same companies hired us to build enterprise-based > solutions > and wanted a PHP-based web application the choices were usually Drupal > for > sites that needed a CMS and Laravel for sites that didn't. Even if they > wanted a SPA (single page application) like React, Angular, or Vue, we > recommended the backend be built in Laravel and not Express (Node). > Drupal > is based on the Symfony PHP framework and Laravel hooks into it. > Symfony is > by far the most well supported open source PHP solution. The irony is > that > there are enough good libraries both on the JavaScript and PHP that are > better written, more secure, and just as easy to implement than going > to a > WP-based approach. Plus I have to wonder what is going on with > Automatic > and WP Engine and what is the future of WordPress. > > For sites that need to be sped up and are limited to remain on older > server > instances. My advice is to simplify the code base as much as possible. > So > roll your own framework or use a lightweight MVC framework. Turn on > opcode > (APC) and object caching (Redis) and if you are using Apache as your > Webserver play with the MaxClient settings to dial in the amount of > preforking that Apache does. Setting the number too high in MySQL > will > cause thrashing when the database constantly has to write data out to > the > disk to clear up memory to add threads. Or switch to Nginx as the > webserver. > > Package These up in a Docker container or containers (web server, > database > server) running a lightweight Linux instance and you have a portable > web > application that can be installed anywhere and spun up in seconds. > > On Fri, Nov 15, 2024 at 12:17?PM Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss < > plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: > >> Thank You David, >> >> I agree WordPress is bloated and it is one-size-fits-all. I saw a >> video >> recently that WordPress has 40% market share. >> >> I am hoping to build my own infrastructure within a year and a half. >> >> I think potentially the back end JS issue is my problem. That is why >> I >> mentioned my daily driver is a 10 year old Dell with an i5 and 16G of >> RAM. It is running an SSD that helps. Seems 32G is the minimum >> now....Yikes >> >> Another issue is Google has removed 12 of my articles because of >> redirects. I've looked at it several times and cannot figure it out. >> I >> did not add the redirects. I wonder if it is WordPress that is doing >> something. >> >> Other than a more powerful CPU and more RAM what is the solution? Is >> there a point when people start to exit WordPress, and where do they >> go? >> >> >> >> >> On 2024-11-13 12:47, David Schwartz via PLUG-discuss wrote: >>> Javascript runs in the browser. Most issues I hear about and >>> encounter >>> myself end up being browser-related. >>> >>> You mentined all of the things that aren?t connected to JS, and did >>> not >>> mention the one(s) that are. JS is the primary source of problems >>> today. And hackers that break into the back-end. >>> >>> I operate almost exclusively on Macs and my Android phone, and I?ve >>> got >>> between three and six browsers on each one. None of them work the >>> same >>> ? which is to say, when I run into a problem on one, I can usually >>> solve it by switching to another browser. Every week it?s something >>> different. >>> >>> The source of the problem is not worth my time to figure it out, and >>> it?s really easy to switch to another browser. >>> >>> Don?t blame php or the back-end for quirks that are endemic to JS >>> running in one specific browser. Even updates of the same browser can >>> behave differently. And the behavior on the same browser can change >>> from one day to the next, or one hour to the next. Nobody is changing >>> the back-end that frequently, I can assure you. It?s the libraries >>> the >>> pages are loading up, or the code the site?s developers changed last >>> night. >>> >>> I?ve been writing code in Delphi using TMS WEB Core, which is >>> available >>> both as a Delphi addon and a standalone package that runs in Visual >>> Studio Code. It takes Delphi code (Object Pascal) and translates it >>> into JS and packages it up so it runs in the browser. NONE of it is >>> running in the back-end! It?s 100% browser based. And 100% of the >>> weird >>> issues I have are all browser related. Sure, there are bugs in the >>> platform, but they are typically reproduced the same in every >>> browser. >>> Browser issues show up differently in one browser, maybe two, but not >>> in all of them. >>> >>> A lot of browsers are using the Chromium engine, so quirks in it can >>> be >>> reflected elsewhere, but they usually need to be running the same >>> version of the engine for them to show up. >>> >>> It used to be that you had to test software on different machines >>> from >>> different vendors, different versions of Windows or MacOS, and it >>> cost >>> you a lot of money to have all of those combinations of software and >>> hardware available for testing. >>> >>> Today you just need to test on one hardware platform with variations >>> of >>> browsers loaded on it, probably running in separate VMs or docker >>> images to ensure you test with different versions of Chromium and >>> whatnot. >>> >>> Same old sh*t, different approach. >>> >>> As far as WP goes, I think it?s internal architecture has become >>> obsolete. Layers and layers of crap have been added to convert >>> asynchronous events into something that serializes them, and the >>> people >>> writing plugins and themes are mostly inexperienced coders who don?t >>> have a clue what?s what. Meanwhile there are people who have nothing >>> else to do with their life but find ways to sneak into cracks and >>> crevices in the back-end, and sometimes wide-open doors, left by said >>> inexperienced coders who didn?t do a good job testing their code. ?It >>> works! Ship it!? >>> >>> The UX/UI logic is all being pushed out to the browser, and the >>> business logic is being hidden behind REST APIs. I can build >>> something >>> in TMS WEB Core way faster than it takes to build in WP ? it runs >>> faster, is more solid, and is far easier to maintain. That can >>> probably >>> be said of most JS-based UX/UI dev tools today. >>> >>> The problem with Wordpress is ? it?s Wordpress. The UX/UI is tightly >>> coupled to the back-end because all of the user?s state is managed in >>> the back-end. And it?s not an API, but just a huge mess of functions >>> that are designed to be hijacked by programmers to get it to do >>> pretty >>> much anything out of the ordinary ? if you can?t get it to support >>> something in the UI, you need to build a plugin or theme to add it. >>> And >>> that code lives on the BACK-END and is susceptible to all of the >>> myriad >>> ways there are for hackers to throw sand in the gears. The whole damn >>> platform is open to anybody who wants to poke and prod it?s guts! >>> They >>> even added an API but nobody uses it. >>> >>> If I need something to work a certain way using WEB Core, I can >>> easily >>> program it. I hide necessary business logic behind an authenticated >>> REST API and the JS in the browser manages it all. The events are all >>> asynchronous and I don?t have to worry about someone hacking into the >>> back-end code and hijacking everything. I can build the services in >>> any >>> language and host it on any platform I want. >>> >>> In WP, you have to build a plugin and plan to maintain it as further >>> WP >>> updates will very likely break it in some unexpected way. Or if not >>> the >>> WP code than maybe one of the UI libs you?re working with change and >>> someone updated a theme that loads a different version and screws up >>> your code. >>> >>> IMHO, WP is just a big fat ugly mess that only gets worse over time. >>> >>> Just switch to a no-code / low-code solution that lets you >>> custom-build >>> what you need, and that isn?t dependent on dozens of things that can >>> change from week to week and month to month as the underlying >>> platform >>> is patched to fix newly-discovered exploits and the UI libs get >>> updated >>> by updates in the plugins and themes. >>> >>> -David Schwartz >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Nov 13, 2024, at 9:12 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> This is kind of off topic, however WordPress is Open Source and I >>>> would expect that the vast majority of WordPress is run on LAMP >>>> servers. >>>> >>>> My daily driver is a 10 year old Dell that has an i5 with 16G of RAM >>>> that runs Kubuntu 24.04lts. >>>> >>>> I am running a blog using WordPress that is hosted on an Ubuntu >>>> server. >>>> >>>> I am having issues with the WordPress Gutenberg back end. I cannot >>>> get it to do the things I want to do like bold text. At times is is >>>> sluggish. I've read that WordPress has a 10 year plan to move to >>>> JavaScript. There is not a lot of info available so it is unclear >>>> if >>>> the PHP code will be replaced as well. If WordPress replaces the >>>> PHP >>>> back end I will leave WordPress. As it is WordPress is hanging by a >>>> thread. >>>> >>>> These problems are new. I am also having formatting issues which >>>> might >>>> be due to my theme. >>>> >>>> Is anyone having these issues or maybe other issues with WordPress? >>>> >>>> Ultimately I may create my own infrastructure or start building my >>>> own >>>> theme. >>>> >>>> Any feedback is very welcome. >>>> >>>> Keith >>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> --------------------------------------------------- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> > > > -- > James > > *Linkedin * > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > ------------------------------ > > End of PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 235, Issue 15 > ********************************************* > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --------------------------------------------------- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss