On 2022-08-28 02:43, James Mcphee via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> i think most of the "php isn't a programming language" is holdover
> from the days where you'd separate scripting from programming. back
> in ze day (but not too far back) you were billed per cycle and meg (or
> just had a very limited amount). control of data structures and
> instructions is paramount in such an environment. virtual machines
> (interpretters) were hideously inefficient in such a space, although
> still useful for operators (usually in the form of shells and control
> languages). the programmer vs operator divide was real 'cause the
> programmers got the "real work" done, and operators controlled the
> keys to the kingdom.
In the early 80's I heard about operators. Never did meet an operator.
>
> does this still matter? sure. the best way to save on electricity
> (crypto), battery (as in phone lifespan), or time (fin-tech) is to
> make sure your program executes as quickly as possible. does this
> matter to most people for most things? not really.
I assume Java is not all that efficient. And from what I can tell it is
in use on small devices like phones.
> having quick
> time-to-market is often more important than efficiency on hardware.
> any business is a matter of tradeoffs and the market decides where
> that balance is now and is kind enough to update itself for us.
>
> each language is a collection of tradeoffs, be they forced behavior,
> inefficient memory management, how they're translated to executable
> instructions, etc. the only real advice i've seen worth its salt is
> "be a polyglot" from both bjorn and kernighan in separate interviews.
> once you have a couple programming languages under your belt you'll
> find that learning new ones is easy.
>
> going back to the original question of if php is a "real" programming
> language, of course it is! it has the basic 16 operations necessary
> to be turing complete. php is far from ideal for most things in most
> spaces, as are all other languages with their own tradeoffs. as you
> expand your capabilities, you'll be more able to leverage better tools
> for the problems you approach.
>
Interesting statement "it has the basic 16 operations necessary to be
turing complete.
I have not heard the word "turing" in years... maybe like decades.
I seem to recall there was some, where they academics?, that published
what makes a programming language? I need to look up "turing" and
refresh my memory.
Please expand on "turing".
> On Sun, Aug 28, 2022 at 1:09 AM David Schwartz via PLUG-discuss
> <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>> My opinion might not count for much since I don’t really program
>> with PHP, although I spent about a year with V4 in 2000. I do enjoy
>> looking at the language updates and seeing what small steps the PHP
>> language Gods take each time it’s updated. In contrast to C++, PHP
>> seems to be evolving at a snail’s pace.
>>
>> The issues about interpreted (aka, “scripting”) languages is
>> bogus. Python is now the #1 most popular programming language in the
>> world, and it’s interpreted. So there goes that theory.
>>
>> https://skilldeck.org/learning/best-programming-language-to-learn
>> [2]
>>
>> My take on PHP is that it has been in a stuck-in-the-middle state
>> for >20 years, between being a “structured/procedural
>> programming” and “object-oriented” language. Kind of like C++
>> was before V1.1 or so was introduced.
>>
>> Still, while you can use both to create OO code, you can also use
>> both to write horrid code that runs just fine and doesn’t use any
>> of the class-related language constructs.
>>
>> Over the years, C++ has been embraced by the OOP community and you
>> don’t see anybody demanding that C++ compilers be able to compile
>> any old C code. The C standard is still evolving and it keeps taking
>> on bits and pieces of things inspired by C++, but it’s really
>> still not an OOP language.
>>
>> But I’ve heard PHP coders constantly complaining about the fact
>> that the use of classes in PHP kills performance. Yeah, as if Python
>> users think that’s even relevant! Python is 100% OOP right out of
>> the gate, and they seem proud of it. Both are interpreted, and both
>> are probably about as efficient compared with a compiled language.
>> (Are there any performance comparisons between equivalent PHP and
>> Python apps?)
>>
>> If an OOP-based interpreted language can attain the "#1 most popular
>> language” slot and nobody cares about the little bit of overhead
>> that the OO part imposes on the execution time, then perhaps it’s
>> time for PHP coders to suck-it-up and learn how to REALLY code in
>> OOP idioms! Until then, it’s the PHP programming community
>> that’s shooting itself in the feet, not the language. Get rid of
>> the “holes” in the language that allow it to process old code
>> that breaks all of the encapsulation rules and make the use of
>> classes more direct rather than forcing the use of squirrly syntax
>> that is constantly reminding people “this isn’t really an
>> object-oriented language … but you can use it that way … IF YOU
>> INSIST”.
>>
>> This is 2022. Nobody teaches plain old structured/procedural
>> programming any more — they don’t even say they’re teaching
>> OOP, it’s just what all modern languages support today. Except
>> PHP, which cannot seem to decide if it’s ever going to grow up and
>> let go of its procedural roots.
>>
>> (Perhaps a big part of the problem is all of the old procedural PHP
>> code that people are scared to refactor. So instead they just start
>> over in Python?)
>>
>> -David Schwartz
>>
>>> On Aug 27, 2022, at 7:11 PM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss
>>> <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Just in time to add another thread that might be as intense as the
>>> sysd...etc thread.
>>>
>>> For years I have heard that people say PHP is not a real language.
>>>
>>> One guy says interpreted languages are not real programming
>>> languages, they are scripting languages. I guess way back when I
>>> was an xBase developer I must have not been a real programmer.
>>> Back in the day The only compiled xBase was Clipper Summer 87 by
>>> Nantucket Corp. I think it was possible to compile xBase code but
>>> I never did except with Clipper Summer 87. I think Visual Fox was
>>> compiled...
>>>
>>> Another says the barrier to entry makes it possible for
>>> non-professional programmers to get hired and to mess up the code
>>> base. Isn't that a hiring manager's issue?
>>>
>>> I think PHP is a great language and a lot of others must think so
>>> too.
>>>
>>> I really liked the decade long ride with PHP 5. I think 7 brought
>>> some good changes in the area of speed and the removal of Register
>>> globals.
>>>
>>> PHP must be doing something right because it is run by upwards of
>>> 80% of the websites on the Internet.
>>>
>>> I do think the PHP team is moving too fast. We now have version
>>> 8.
>>>
>>> So what is wrong with PHP and where are we going in such a hurry?
>>>
>>> And finally why does PHP have to be anything but simple stupid?
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> --
> James McPhee
> jmcphe@gmail.com
>
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