On 2022-08-28 02:43, James Mcphee via PLUG-discuss wrote: > i think most of the "php isn't a programming language" is holdover > from the days where you'd separate scripting from programming. back > in ze day (but not too far back) you were billed per cycle and meg (or > just had a very limited amount). control of data structures and > instructions is paramount in such an environment. virtual machines > (interpretters) were hideously inefficient in such a space, although > still useful for operators (usually in the form of shells and control > languages). the programmer vs operator divide was real 'cause the > programmers got the "real work" done, and operators controlled the > keys to the kingdom. In the early 80's I heard about operators. Never did meet an operator. > > does this still matter? sure. the best way to save on electricity > (crypto), battery (as in phone lifespan), or time (fin-tech) is to > make sure your program executes as quickly as possible. does this > matter to most people for most things? not really. I assume Java is not all that efficient. And from what I can tell it is in use on small devices like phones. > having quick > time-to-market is often more important than efficiency on hardware. > any business is a matter of tradeoffs and the market decides where > that balance is now and is kind enough to update itself for us. > > each language is a collection of tradeoffs, be they forced behavior, > inefficient memory management, how they're translated to executable > instructions, etc. the only real advice i've seen worth its salt is > "be a polyglot" from both bjorn and kernighan in separate interviews. > once you have a couple programming languages under your belt you'll > find that learning new ones is easy. > > going back to the original question of if php is a "real" programming > language, of course it is! it has the basic 16 operations necessary > to be turing complete. php is far from ideal for most things in most > spaces, as are all other languages with their own tradeoffs. as you > expand your capabilities, you'll be more able to leverage better tools > for the problems you approach. > Interesting statement "it has the basic 16 operations necessary to be turing complete. I have not heard the word "turing" in years... maybe like decades. I seem to recall there was some, where they academics?, that published what makes a programming language? I need to look up "turing" and refresh my memory. Please expand on "turing". > On Sun, Aug 28, 2022 at 1:09 AM David Schwartz via PLUG-discuss > wrote: > >> My opinion might not count for much since I don’t really program >> with PHP, although I spent about a year with V4 in 2000. I do enjoy >> looking at the language updates and seeing what small steps the PHP >> language Gods take each time it’s updated. In contrast to C++, PHP >> seems to be evolving at a snail’s pace. >> >> The issues about interpreted (aka, “scripting”) languages is >> bogus. Python is now the #1 most popular programming language in the >> world, and it’s interpreted. So there goes that theory. >> >> https://skilldeck.org/learning/best-programming-language-to-learn >> [2] >> >> My take on PHP is that it has been in a stuck-in-the-middle state >> for >20 years, between being a “structured/procedural >> programming” and “object-oriented” language. Kind of like C++ >> was before V1.1 or so was introduced. >> >> Still, while you can use both to create OO code, you can also use >> both to write horrid code that runs just fine and doesn’t use any >> of the class-related language constructs. >> >> Over the years, C++ has been embraced by the OOP community and you >> don’t see anybody demanding that C++ compilers be able to compile >> any old C code. The C standard is still evolving and it keeps taking >> on bits and pieces of things inspired by C++, but it’s really >> still not an OOP language. >> >> But I’ve heard PHP coders constantly complaining about the fact >> that the use of classes in PHP kills performance. Yeah, as if Python >> users think that’s even relevant! Python is 100% OOP right out of >> the gate, and they seem proud of it. Both are interpreted, and both >> are probably about as efficient compared with a compiled language. >> (Are there any performance comparisons between equivalent PHP and >> Python apps?) >> >> If an OOP-based interpreted language can attain the "#1 most popular >> language” slot and nobody cares about the little bit of overhead >> that the OO part imposes on the execution time, then perhaps it’s >> time for PHP coders to suck-it-up and learn how to REALLY code in >> OOP idioms! Until then, it’s the PHP programming community >> that’s shooting itself in the feet, not the language. Get rid of >> the “holes” in the language that allow it to process old code >> that breaks all of the encapsulation rules and make the use of >> classes more direct rather than forcing the use of squirrly syntax >> that is constantly reminding people “this isn’t really an >> object-oriented language … but you can use it that way … IF YOU >> INSIST”. >> >> This is 2022. Nobody teaches plain old structured/procedural >> programming any more — they don’t even say they’re teaching >> OOP, it’s just what all modern languages support today. Except >> PHP, which cannot seem to decide if it’s ever going to grow up and >> let go of its procedural roots. >> >> (Perhaps a big part of the problem is all of the old procedural PHP >> code that people are scared to refactor. So instead they just start >> over in Python?) >> >> -David Schwartz >> >>> On Aug 27, 2022, at 7:11 PM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss >>> wrote: >>> >>> Just in time to add another thread that might be as intense as the >>> sysd...etc thread. >>> >>> For years I have heard that people say PHP is not a real language. >>> >>> One guy says interpreted languages are not real programming >>> languages, they are scripting languages. I guess way back when I >>> was an xBase developer I must have not been a real programmer. >>> Back in the day The only compiled xBase was Clipper Summer 87 by >>> Nantucket Corp. I think it was possible to compile xBase code but >>> I never did except with Clipper Summer 87. I think Visual Fox was >>> compiled... >>> >>> Another says the barrier to entry makes it possible for >>> non-professional programmers to get hired and to mess up the code >>> base. Isn't that a hiring manager's issue? >>> >>> I think PHP is a great language and a lot of others must think so >>> too. >>> >>> I really liked the decade long ride with PHP 5. I think 7 brought >>> some good changes in the area of speed and the removal of Register >>> globals. >>> >>> PHP must be doing something right because it is run by upwards of >>> 80% of the websites on the Internet. >>> >>> I do think the PHP team is moving too fast. We now have version >>> 8. >>> >>> So what is wrong with PHP and where are we going in such a hurry? >>> >>> And finally why does PHP have to be anything but simple stupid? >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss [1] >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > -- > James McPhee > jmcphe@gmail.com > > Links: > ------ > [1] > https://u2206659.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=SJEG7TF39YLaAIMD0HhsfC6E-2FcJXOs2D1VhGcvn2YkObFLMBOC3gmante55BOqf2F-2ByuZjZxeWAcK3DSlXP4Xtp4dQImX1G2Oq-2BQoN6woQ4-3DIGUn_o-2BjQxMsWfboH-2B-2BcY2qb3IYCoqvthnvff9ftZz0pNEJ2tF1jbVlVBtrlaPYq4av3G-2Bt7mm8IMBuhSVqpCcnh12JGn5VGiBp4ej1D8wF4Jr4FTQlK7hoEK3EP8wIQljijQxbFmgL1DTcUs-2FK-2FluF7H6a3cTOBL2PtAMGgoX3WBKv4u8sIx0qipYDd9nqYkaVO6jawoylmYYYvBm5MyF-2BK45amc-2F04l8F1e4LxUBQA1xds-3D > [2] > https://u2206659.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=SJEG7TF39YLaAIMD0HhsfJVUp5k4FPRQWFpjhE34mwwmabVu4BgQFRZ5Xq2IUprGzUTK3y1lVUwk6pWsIx2TMhl19zUBjc-2FtfGZ5-2Bt75qno-3DK04D_o-2BjQxMsWfboH-2B-2BcY2qb3IYCoqvthnvff9ftZz0pNEJ2tF1jbVlVBtrlaPYq4av3G-2Bt7mm8IMBuhSVqpCcnh12HsoQ-2BSiGw-2FyHTUky4JFaIjx5N3yakVaDRcDfXlnzwEr0d0hYkuXQ-2BqpePSh9x8ifL92Pji0rlXG52S0d-2FX1zORp0Eodq5GYOSdPU2fi8ffwT7Jc9xpfgMod0dxrFpVEeP6FVqeNGyel-2By4K7C3Jx0c-3D > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --------------------------------------------------- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss