thanks for telling me about this mb. I'm not advanced enough in my
knowledge of Linux to use arch. I'll stick with mint.... but what about
manjaro? Manjaro users: Do you have the same issue with it; is it good for
a casual Linux user??
On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 1:31 PM Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
> I'll second arch, I've been using it for a good 4-5 years now, and only
> thing I run on personal hardware anymore.
>
> That said, it can be cranky, even with rolling updates. I've had them
> randomly blow up at least one system that I couldn't figure out how to fix,
> and upgrades can be a pain with AUR repos pulling in sometimes dubious
> maintenance builds of packages that later break. When it occurs, you often
> end up in dependency recursion hell, where something is dependent on
> upgrading something else that it can't, due to something else wanting a
> particular version, nor will it let you simply remove it because you'd have
> to replace/remove 50 other things. I've spent at times days beating my
> head on a keyboard to fix these manually gutting packages ugly-style and
> forcing replacements over others to fix.
>
> Another good one, I just picked up a new (used) lenovo thinkpad T15g that
> installing arch on is panic-ing the kernel on boot before I can really even
> do anything, even in recovery. This should be fun like ants to fix...
>
> I do love arch, but it still tries my patience at times.
>
> -mb
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 6:38 AM James Mcphee via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>> this has weird knockon effects too. since arch is rolling release, and
>> highly customizable, they don't tend to switch up major pieces often. say
>> with fedora they decided to go to ext3 to ext4 to xfs, then btrfs
>> filesystems. now, if you run the upgrade scripts on time you can go from
>> fedora 35 to 36, but you won't have your filesystem changed to btrfs (i
>> don't remember the exact verison they made that change). but assumptions
>> are made that if you're running fedora 36 you have a certain setup, and
>> hilarity ensues.
>>
>> You often can't have as long-lived a system with fedora or ubuntu as you
>> can with arch since arch lets you set it up how you want and organizes its
>> updates to take that into account. whereas fedora or ubuntu kinda assumes
>> you're installing from their media without too much customization and the
>> cruft that can build up if you've run the update scripts a few times can
>> get downright nasty.
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 6:32 AM James Mcphee <jmcphe@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> oh, they have a good test system. what i mean is breaking versions.
>>> upgrading from one version of software to another. say a kernel that
>>> decides a particular tuning variable is no longer used in favor of
>>> something else. and all the sudden your database performance chunks
>>> horribly because you had to patch. (yes, that's happened to me more than
>>> once).
>>>
>>> or, say your favorite tls layer deciding to deprecate ciphers you've
>>> manually defined in your configs.
>>>
>>> the more versioned systems (fedora and ubuntu, etc) will patch the
>>> versions they have until the next release when they make a big jump in
>>> software versions (often requiring you to learn large amounts of changes at
>>> once).
>>>
>>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 6:28 AM Michael via PLUG-discuss <
>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> wonderful. with breaking patches: is it fixed like the next day or is
>>>> it usually later than that?
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 9:21 AM James Mcphee via PLUG-discuss <
>>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> arch has probably the best community (and wiki) in the business. they
>>>>> also have a huge (and relatively simple) extended software library (AUR)
>>>>>
>>>>> the main reason most people will speak of arch is that it is a rolling
>>>>> (or streaming) release. so with fedora or ubuntu, you get new versions
>>>>> every 6 months or so and there may be upgrade scripts but you have to pay
>>>>> attention. with arch, it's a constant release system. this means in arch
>>>>> you tend to have the newer versions of stuff most of the time, not waiting
>>>>> on some arbitrary version release window. the downsides of this is that
>>>>> with a locked version, you can generally count on patches not being
>>>>> breaking, while that is not a guarantee in arch.
>>>>>
>>>>> also. arch is one of THE most customizable distros out there (that
>>>>> wiki is so good it's often better than other distros official commercial
>>>>> support). if you can do the base install (a bit more involved than fedora
>>>>> or ubuntu), customizing your desktop isn't much of a jump. Sure, you can
>>>>> do this with most other distros, i mean software is software, but with arch
>>>>> you don't have dependencies for chat clients reaching all the way up to
>>>>> base packages.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 6:15 AM Michael via PLUG-discuss <
>>>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> also, it was mentioned that arch has benefits..... what are those?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 9:12 AM Michael <bmike1@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> thank yout for the advice.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 9:10 AM James Mcphee via PLUG-discuss <
>>>>>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Oh sorry, I must have buried the lead. I use systemd linux systems
>>>>>>>> for my desktopy desktops (ubuntu and fedora mostly). Aka, the ones i check
>>>>>>>> email, browse the web, play games on. For my developery desktops I do not
>>>>>>>> use systemd, but that is born of pure frustration and malding.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 6:05 AM Michael via PLUG-discuss <
>>>>>>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So do you recommend system d for a desktop? It assms you don't and
>>>>>>>>> then you do.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 8:44 AM James Mcphee via PLUG-discuss <
>>>>>>>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> two main reasons.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> one is ideological. the way systemd was put into the community
>>>>>>>>>> rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. i won't get into the details, you can
>>>>>>>>>> google for that whole war. no sense bringing it up again.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> two is simplicity. systemd is now over a million lines of code.
>>>>>>>>>> to put that into perspective, going by the mythical man month numbers, a
>>>>>>>>>> single good programmer can average understanding 2 pages of code a day in a
>>>>>>>>>> complex codebase. That's 50 lines of code per day. from the same source,
>>>>>>>>>> developers produce roughly 10 lines of code per day on average. now,
>>>>>>>>>> there's a lot of give around these numbers, but you can get some idea of
>>>>>>>>>> the scale of trying to get a handle on it if there's a bug you need to work
>>>>>>>>>> with.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> a couple of bugs i've had to deal with in recent memory, extended
>>>>>>>>>> udp handling in resolved and console output (which was actually correct to
>>>>>>>>>> standard in systemd, but everyone had worked around the previous bug and
>>>>>>>>>> that workaround wasn't compatible with the systemd implementation).
>>>>>>>>>> neither of these were minor. the resolved bug prevented adoption of dnssec
>>>>>>>>>> and the console thing required manual intervention of containers using it
>>>>>>>>>> (docker, k8s, etc). i don't know if these things have been resolved either
>>>>>>>>>> in systemd or the container systems. the problems in question forced a
>>>>>>>>>> rearchitecture of our projects as fixes were not going to be fast enough
>>>>>>>>>> and we haven't revisited them. for the resolved issue, the systemd project
>>>>>>>>>> lead flat out said it wasn't a priority. for the container/console issue,
>>>>>>>>>> you have to go back in time when the docker team wore "no, i will not merge
>>>>>>>>>> your systemd patches into our codebase" tshirts to conventions.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> in conclusion, i use systemd for servers, desktops, and vms. I
>>>>>>>>>> find it quite reliable in most cases. i think it does a better job with
>>>>>>>>>> login, hal, service dependency, and mtab than the older system. for my use
>>>>>>>>>> case of containers, it is entirely unnecessary and nothing but a headache.
>>>>>>>>>> for my developer station, i mald quite enough and have no patience left to
>>>>>>>>>> deal with it when it inevitably creates issues (oh, no for this thing you
>>>>>>>>>> need to put your proxy settings 3 layers of abstraction down over here with
>>>>>>>>>> this particular format) and tend to use the simplest system possible.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 4:38 AM Michael via PLUG-discuss <
>>>>>>>>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why would u not want system d?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 4:15 AM Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss <
>>>>>>>>>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 2022-08-26 at 17:50 -0700, T. Zack Crawford via
>>>>>>>>>>>> PLUG-discuss wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> > I would recommend not Manjaro because it's just a less-good
>>>>>>>>>>>> arch linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>> > I use Arch Linux. Depends what you're looking for, though.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Or, Artix could be used in order to get the benefits of Arch
>>>>>>>>>>>> without systemd.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> SteveT
>>>>>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> :-)~MIKE~(-:
>>>>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> James McPhee
>>>>>>>>>> jmcphe@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> :-)~MIKE~(-:
>>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>>>>>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> James McPhee
>>>>>>>> jmcphe@gmail.com
>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>>>>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>>>>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> :-)~MIKE~(-:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> :-)~MIKE~(-:
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>>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> James McPhee
>>>>> jmcphe@gmail.com
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> :-)~MIKE~(-:
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> James McPhee
>>> jmcphe@gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> James McPhee
>> jmcphe@gmail.com
>> ---------------------------------------------------
>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
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