thanks for telling me about this mb. I'm not advanced enough in my knowledge of Linux to use arch. I'll stick with mint.... but what about manjaro? Manjaro users: Do you have the same issue with it; is it good for a casual Linux user?? On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 1:31 PM Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss < plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: > I'll second arch, I've been using it for a good 4-5 years now, and only > thing I run on personal hardware anymore. > > That said, it can be cranky, even with rolling updates. I've had them > randomly blow up at least one system that I couldn't figure out how to fix, > and upgrades can be a pain with AUR repos pulling in sometimes dubious > maintenance builds of packages that later break. When it occurs, you often > end up in dependency recursion hell, where something is dependent on > upgrading something else that it can't, due to something else wanting a > particular version, nor will it let you simply remove it because you'd have > to replace/remove 50 other things. I've spent at times days beating my > head on a keyboard to fix these manually gutting packages ugly-style and > forcing replacements over others to fix. > > Another good one, I just picked up a new (used) lenovo thinkpad T15g that > installing arch on is panic-ing the kernel on boot before I can really even > do anything, even in recovery. This should be fun like ants to fix... > > I do love arch, but it still tries my patience at times. > > -mb > > > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 6:38 AM James Mcphee via PLUG-discuss < > plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: > >> this has weird knockon effects too. since arch is rolling release, and >> highly customizable, they don't tend to switch up major pieces often. say >> with fedora they decided to go to ext3 to ext4 to xfs, then btrfs >> filesystems. now, if you run the upgrade scripts on time you can go from >> fedora 35 to 36, but you won't have your filesystem changed to btrfs (i >> don't remember the exact verison they made that change). but assumptions >> are made that if you're running fedora 36 you have a certain setup, and >> hilarity ensues. >> >> You often can't have as long-lived a system with fedora or ubuntu as you >> can with arch since arch lets you set it up how you want and organizes its >> updates to take that into account. whereas fedora or ubuntu kinda assumes >> you're installing from their media without too much customization and the >> cruft that can build up if you've run the update scripts a few times can >> get downright nasty. >> >> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 6:32 AM James Mcphee wrote: >> >>> oh, they have a good test system. what i mean is breaking versions. >>> upgrading from one version of software to another. say a kernel that >>> decides a particular tuning variable is no longer used in favor of >>> something else. and all the sudden your database performance chunks >>> horribly because you had to patch. (yes, that's happened to me more than >>> once). >>> >>> or, say your favorite tls layer deciding to deprecate ciphers you've >>> manually defined in your configs. >>> >>> the more versioned systems (fedora and ubuntu, etc) will patch the >>> versions they have until the next release when they make a big jump in >>> software versions (often requiring you to learn large amounts of changes at >>> once). >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 6:28 AM Michael via PLUG-discuss < >>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: >>> >>>> wonderful. with breaking patches: is it fixed like the next day or is >>>> it usually later than that? >>>> >>>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 9:21 AM James Mcphee via PLUG-discuss < >>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> arch has probably the best community (and wiki) in the business. they >>>>> also have a huge (and relatively simple) extended software library (AUR) >>>>> >>>>> the main reason most people will speak of arch is that it is a rolling >>>>> (or streaming) release. so with fedora or ubuntu, you get new versions >>>>> every 6 months or so and there may be upgrade scripts but you have to pay >>>>> attention. with arch, it's a constant release system. this means in arch >>>>> you tend to have the newer versions of stuff most of the time, not waiting >>>>> on some arbitrary version release window. the downsides of this is that >>>>> with a locked version, you can generally count on patches not being >>>>> breaking, while that is not a guarantee in arch. >>>>> >>>>> also. arch is one of THE most customizable distros out there (that >>>>> wiki is so good it's often better than other distros official commercial >>>>> support). if you can do the base install (a bit more involved than fedora >>>>> or ubuntu), customizing your desktop isn't much of a jump. Sure, you can >>>>> do this with most other distros, i mean software is software, but with arch >>>>> you don't have dependencies for chat clients reaching all the way up to >>>>> base packages. >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 6:15 AM Michael via PLUG-discuss < >>>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> also, it was mentioned that arch has benefits..... what are those? >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 9:12 AM Michael wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> thank yout for the advice. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 9:10 AM James Mcphee via PLUG-discuss < >>>>>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Oh sorry, I must have buried the lead. I use systemd linux systems >>>>>>>> for my desktopy desktops (ubuntu and fedora mostly). Aka, the ones i check >>>>>>>> email, browse the web, play games on. For my developery desktops I do not >>>>>>>> use systemd, but that is born of pure frustration and malding. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 6:05 AM Michael via PLUG-discuss < >>>>>>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So do you recommend system d for a desktop? It assms you don't and >>>>>>>>> then you do. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 8:44 AM James Mcphee via PLUG-discuss < >>>>>>>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> two main reasons. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> one is ideological. the way systemd was put into the community >>>>>>>>>> rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. i won't get into the details, you can >>>>>>>>>> google for that whole war. no sense bringing it up again. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> two is simplicity. systemd is now over a million lines of code. >>>>>>>>>> to put that into perspective, going by the mythical man month numbers, a >>>>>>>>>> single good programmer can average understanding 2 pages of code a day in a >>>>>>>>>> complex codebase. That's 50 lines of code per day. from the same source, >>>>>>>>>> developers produce roughly 10 lines of code per day on average. now, >>>>>>>>>> there's a lot of give around these numbers, but you can get some idea of >>>>>>>>>> the scale of trying to get a handle on it if there's a bug you need to work >>>>>>>>>> with. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> a couple of bugs i've had to deal with in recent memory, extended >>>>>>>>>> udp handling in resolved and console output (which was actually correct to >>>>>>>>>> standard in systemd, but everyone had worked around the previous bug and >>>>>>>>>> that workaround wasn't compatible with the systemd implementation). >>>>>>>>>> neither of these were minor. the resolved bug prevented adoption of dnssec >>>>>>>>>> and the console thing required manual intervention of containers using it >>>>>>>>>> (docker, k8s, etc). i don't know if these things have been resolved either >>>>>>>>>> in systemd or the container systems. the problems in question forced a >>>>>>>>>> rearchitecture of our projects as fixes were not going to be fast enough >>>>>>>>>> and we haven't revisited them. for the resolved issue, the systemd project >>>>>>>>>> lead flat out said it wasn't a priority. for the container/console issue, >>>>>>>>>> you have to go back in time when the docker team wore "no, i will not merge >>>>>>>>>> your systemd patches into our codebase" tshirts to conventions. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> in conclusion, i use systemd for servers, desktops, and vms. I >>>>>>>>>> find it quite reliable in most cases. i think it does a better job with >>>>>>>>>> login, hal, service dependency, and mtab than the older system. for my use >>>>>>>>>> case of containers, it is entirely unnecessary and nothing but a headache. >>>>>>>>>> for my developer station, i mald quite enough and have no patience left to >>>>>>>>>> deal with it when it inevitably creates issues (oh, no for this thing you >>>>>>>>>> need to put your proxy settings 3 layers of abstraction down over here with >>>>>>>>>> this particular format) and tend to use the simplest system possible. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 4:38 AM Michael via PLUG-discuss < >>>>>>>>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Why would u not want system d? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 4:15 AM Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss < >>>>>>>>>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 2022-08-26 at 17:50 -0700, T. Zack Crawford via >>>>>>>>>>>> PLUG-discuss wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> > I would recommend not Manjaro because it's just a less-good >>>>>>>>>>>> arch linux. >>>>>>>>>>>> > I use Arch Linux. Depends what you're looking for, though. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Or, Artix could be used in order to get the benefits of Arch >>>>>>>>>>>> without systemd. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> SteveT >>>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> :-)~MIKE~(-: >>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> James McPhee >>>>>>>>>> jmcphe@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>>>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>>>>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> :-)~MIKE~(-: >>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>>>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> James McPhee >>>>>>>> jmcphe@gmail.com >>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> :-)~MIKE~(-: >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> :-)~MIKE~(-: >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> James McPhee >>>>> jmcphe@gmail.com >>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> :-)~MIKE~(-: >>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> James McPhee >>> jmcphe@gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> James McPhee >> jmcphe@gmail.com >> --------------------------------------------------- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- :-)~MIKE~(-: