> Saw this today, interesting.
>
> https://testmy.net/hoststats/spacex_starlink
>
> -mb
>
> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 2:09 PM Jim <azanorak@gmail.com
> <mailto:azanorak@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Wait until Musk's Starlink is available. Legacy phone companies
> offering DSL won't have a chance.
>
> On 8/22/20 9:05 AM, Michael Butash wrote:
>> Exactly, this is a common scenario these days, where people are
>> stuck in their area with their crappy legacy isp's that are
>> unwilling to invest in upgrading, or even just fixing what they
>> have today. Take back the power. This is really on a per-ISP
>> basis how good they are about doing so, but cable providers seem
>> WAY ahead of any traditional 2-wire telco. Cox was actually one
>> of the best I've worked with, they actually fix old cable plants
>> they've acquired over time that are sub-standard, at least around
>> Phoenix.
>>
>> Back in 2003 when I was looking at doing the residential isp
>> thing, I tried a few things, including mounting a big ass 2.4ghz
>> antenna on my house and doing some 802.11 testing outside to see
>> what sort of performance I'd get even from say my direct
>> neighbor's house. It was crap, even using proper cisco
>> high-power commercial AP's at the time, so mostly scrapped that
>> as it would be mostly unsupportable and/or unsellable. There
>> wasn't any better other than Microwave, which was/is still quite
>> pricey to do.
>>
>> Last year working with a Cali municipal ISP in Santa Monica, they
>> do business and residential last-mile fiber for 1-10gbe
>> connections, typically much cheaper than anyone there as they
>> reuse their own city fiber used for traffic and emergency systems
>> all over the city. Any sort of construction, particularly street
>> cuts, gets uber expensive, so we started using some wireless
>> point to multipoint devices using technically 5g or mm-wave 60ghz
>> connections that can do I think up to 5 connections per unit,
>> which were small and non-descript. We dropped these on a stop
>> light we were in already, pointed at the general area we wanted
>> to cover, deployed our first customer in a week. It helped we
>> *were* the city to do so, but not to say you can't add a small
>> tower in your backyard for the hood.
>>
>> This came with 1gbps rates to each end node, at roughly 1000ft
>> line of sight, so was a bit more ideal potentially for a
>> residential wireless isp type of setup, or at least localized
>> instances, and just needed to get a 1/10g single-mode ethernet
>> connection to the multipoint unit. Perfect for neighborhood isp
>> setups, this was using Siklu components, but Ubiquiti makes them
>> too, I'm sure others. Even better after they start showing up on
>> Ebay cheap.
>>
>> I love this sort of networking stuff, working around the Man and
>> such, building ISP's - I'm always happy to help explore these
>> concepts if someone is serious about wanting to do so. Who's got
>> the VC hookups? Will work for bandwidth.
>>
>> -mb
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 11:23 AM Jim via PLUG-discuss
>> <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>> <mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:
>>
>> I read something once about a lawyer who set up his own ISP.
>> The phone company wouldn't supply DSL to the rural area where
>> he lived. The only internet service available was dialup.
>> He found that from the roof of his barn, he had line of sight
>> to the building the law firm had its offices in. He found
>> some interested neighbors and set up a microwave link from
>> his barn to the office. The local phone company did lease
>> him the lines he needed to provide DSL to his neighbors.
>>
>> On 8/20/20 2:28 PM, Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>>> Part of me really would enjoy setting something like this
>>> up. The new High speed and dedicated wireless/microwave
>>> tools we have now are pretty dang phenomenal and could lead
>>> to a decent wireless/wired hybrid internet service.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 12:19 PM Michael Butash via
>>> PLUG-discuss <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>>> <mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not sure I could live somewhere with crap internet,
>>> I would probably go about forming some sort of local isp
>>> of sorts if enough folks around to be worth it. It's
>>> not exactly hard, backward telcos and cable companies
>>> can figure it out, it's all capital cost up front and
>>> who pays for it, ideally more than just you.
>>>
>>> Circa 2003 at cox business, we had some baller customers
>>> with DS3's to their house (one ran an isp in his
>>> basement), which really meant we installed an OC3 fiber
>>> node there, and gave them a third of it. These were
>>> maybe $2000-3000/mo circuits, but the construction to
>>> get fiber to their crib alone might be $30-50k. One
>>> customer in the middle of a lake community was more to
>>> build into. Either they lock you into a 5yr or more
>>> contract to make that construction cost back, or you pay
>>> it up front.
>>>
>>> Back then, I worked a lot with the project group that
>>> did construction, so I sat down with someone and we
>>> looked at getting fiber to my house for some baller
>>> service myself, ideally with some employee discount...
>>> They estimated roughly $35k in cost alone for
>>> construction, including construction street cuts to bury
>>> fiber, permitting, etc, let alone service, and mine
>>> wasn't terribly complex. I considered reselling to
>>> neighbors, but back then expensive gigabit options
>>> probably weren't too attractive to general consumers in
>>> 2003. I stuck with my cable modem, they didn't pay that
>>> well.
>>>
>>> Today that would probably be equivalent to a 10GbE+ drop
>>> to your house, but at scale of cost most likely. Resell
>>> that to your neighbors for some premium bandwidth,
>>> everyone wins, but presumes your neighbors aren't all
>>> luddites. Some rural communities are doing this, when
>>> AT&T and others aren't shutting them down.
>>>
>>> -mb
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 9:19 AM Bob Elzer via
>>> PLUG-discuss <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>>> <mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'd brush up on fiber splicing lol
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 1:40 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss
>>> <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>>> <mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>> AT&T is still fscked up. The tech came out
>>> today and told me that the cutoff for the
>>> service is 4800 feet and I'm 5136 feet from the
>>> box the modem talks to. He ran some test
>>> anyway and confirmed it's not available. He
>>> told me he has heard of no plans to bring fiber
>>> to my neighborhood, but said it is available in
>>> a small town 5 miles up the road from me in one
>>> direction. 3 miles down the road in the other
>>> direction is a subdivision that has it. The
>>> fiber runs next to the highway less than a
>>> hundred yards from here. I guess it's time to
>>> see what other options if any are available.
>>>
>>> On 8/16/20 10:39 AM, Michael Butash wrote:
>>>> I think it mostly comes down to the fact that
>>>> they can only really guarantee 2 or 4 wires to
>>>> a premise for residential telco, probably more
>>>> modern deployments a full 8 wires (ala CatX),
>>>> though their traditional copper distribution
>>>> isn't built for it unless commercial (their big
>>>> PED on the roads your neighborhood comes back
>>>> to. Probably something in the telcordia
>>>> standards back to ma bell days that says that
>>>> is just how it is. Since the plants are
>>>> non-shielded, non-twisted pair cabling too, it
>>>> can only modulate so high, particularly when
>>>> poorly run/done, which is why you're stuck at
>>>> 12mbps.
>>>>
>>>> If they had to change your home copper, they'd
>>>> just run fiber, neither will happen likely.
>>>>
>>>> The DSL bonding is already a hack to get more
>>>> bandwidth when DSL itself is stuck in time now
>>>> at raw theoretical limits. Combining more
>>>> physical channels as these were would be
>>>> trivial, if copper were available, and telcos
>>>> wanted to support it. Someone would need to
>>>> make the modem too. Technically cable modems
>>>> do this, literally taking "channels" or slices
>>>> or spectrum on the wire, and load-balancing
>>>> them internally, up to 24 or 32 channels for
>>>> multi-gig capabilities. Same with ethernet,
>>>> taking 8 into a port-channel and balancing
>>>> across them, whether 100 megabit or 400 gigabit
>>>> ethernet.
>>>>
>>>> AT&T is the most ghetto provider out there
>>>> still, and always has been imho. Moving to San
>>>> Jose in '99, there was AT&T Cable TV installed
>>>> by the owners, which consisted of 2x of your
>>>> standard coax ala modern cable from the
>>>> outside, and required a physical a/b switch box
>>>> to switch between 13 channels on one, and 13
>>>> channels on another. First I looked at it, and
>>>> was confused enough I had to call them and ask
>>>> wtf the cable "channels" worked to realize just
>>>> how bad it was, and I then worked for the
>>>> original @home cable isp company then
>>>> supporting AT&T cable modems! The images were
>>>> even snowy, the service was so bad even a tech
>>>> couldn't (read: wouldn't) improve. When I
>>>> asked about a cable modem, they laughed at me,
>>>> so I had to get DSL (phat 1.5mbps then),
>>>> disconnected the useless cable tv (yay usenet
>>>> alt.binaries.video even then), and threw up a
>>>> finger to AT&T.
>>>>
>>>> I can only imagine how bad AT&T's DSL is if
>>>> they couldn't figure out even coax. My
>>>> experience supporting their customers for Cable
>>>> Modem data in '99, relatively new tech then,
>>>> wasn't much better, as if the cable plant to
>>>> your house was broke, it tended to just stay
>>>> broke despite our rolling their techs to fix
>>>> it. Then they'd get angry at us for doing so
>>>> and tell us to stop rolling so many trucks to
>>>> fix things.
>>>>
>>>> Sigh.
>>>>
>>>> Having grown up in Phoenix where Dimension, and
>>>> later Cox actually had their shit (relatively)
>>>> together, this was an inconceivable atrocity
>>>> but exactly what I'd expect of AT&T. Thanks to
>>>> them (and Comcast, all the media cartels now
>>>> really) owning the FCC now with your tax
>>>> dollars, it'll never, ever, get better either.
>>>> Good thing Net Neutrality and consumer rights
>>>> weren't really needed after all!
>>>>
>>>> -mb
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 12:42 PM Jim via
>>>> PLUG-discuss <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>>>> <mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 150 Mbps, you're lucky. Here AT&T has to
>>>> bond 2 pairs so I can get 25 Mbps. At
>>>> least it's not comcast. I wonder how many
>>>> pairs they could bond. Is there a
>>>> technical limit or is it just a matter of
>>>> how many they want to bond? As more people
>>>> abandon landlines, that leaves more
>>>> capacity for AT&T to bond multiple pairs
>>>> for internet customers.
>>>>
>>>> On 8/10/20 11:21 AM, Michael Butash via
>>>> PLUG-discuss wrote:
>>>>> So I went through this moving from Cox to
>>>>> CenturyLink, and pretty much as described,
>>>>> fairly painless.
>>>>>
>>>>> <tldr>
>>>>>
>>>>> I had scheduled a CL tech to install me
>>>>> for new service a few years ago, and we
>>>>> first hit the outside where CL ran their
>>>>> cabling in. It was an ancient telephony
>>>>> distribution from the 90's, and I've never
>>>>> had a land-line in my house since owning
>>>>> it in 2002. My house built in 95 at least
>>>>> used cat5 or like, so I have 4 pairs to
>>>>> every room, so 2 pairs I need was just
>>>>> fine for bonded DSL He ripped out the old
>>>>> block, removing the house cabling but the
>>>>> one, and isolated the particular line we
>>>>> needed to my office where the modem lives,
>>>>> added an approved jack, done. Bonded dsl
>>>>> is 2x 2-wire channels, and they
>>>>> essentially load-balance 75+75mbps
>>>>> channels. I have tested this to n-by
>>>>> gigabit upstreams.
>>>>>
>>>>> Phone only guarantees 2 wires are
>>>>> available, so telcos built on this 100
>>>>> years ago are a bit assed-out on passable
>>>>> high-frequency modulation schemas in use
>>>>> for data and other things to move beyond
>>>>> where they're at. DSL makes up for this,
>>>>> particularly when double up on wires it
>>>>> gets better, but still unshielded and
>>>>> prone to breakdown. Problem is mostly it
>>>>> isn't shielded, thus capable of very high
>>>>> frequency modulation ala Cable/DOCSIS, so
>>>>> it will never go much further than it has
>>>>> today whereas Cable scales to gigabits
>>>>> with channelization and QAM modulation at
>>>>> 32bit rates.
>>>>>
>>>>> VDSL tech is capable of roughly 75mbps per
>>>>> channel, and 2x of these get you to around
>>>>> CL's bonded DSL limits. This also includes
>>>>> your distance limitations to your local
>>>>> DSLAM, or regional router that terminates
>>>>> your data that degrades this eventually
>>>>> further you are from it, so it's a bit
>>>>> tricky. It's been stuck here for years,
>>>>> and pretty much at life end. This is why
>>>>> my cousin living half a mile from me can
>>>>> only get 75mbps from CL and I can with
>>>>> bonded @150mbps here. Old crap network there.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fiber, particularly Single Mode, gives you
>>>>> whatever to ~100GbE, but depends on how
>>>>> your provider does low-rate Passive
>>>>> Optical Networking (PON) today for
>>>>> residential fiber. Not quite the same as a
>>>>> business data network, but any fiber is
>>>>> better than copper networks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why Centurylink's only hope for the future
>>>>> is fiber vs. copper in new builds. I like
>>>>> my 25yr old house still, so no fiber for
>>>>> me ever. Unless I street cut my block for
>>>>> fiber myself, which I've considered, just
>>>>> need to get my neighbors to buy into me as
>>>>> their new gigabit isp. ;)
>>>>>
>>>>> -mb
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 1:27 PM Jim via
>>>>> PLUG-discuss
>>>>> <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>>>>> <mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Ok. I won't complain if I have to go
>>>>> out and buy a 4 conductor phone cord.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/7/20 9:05 AM, Stephen Partington
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> My understanding of this is that they
>>>>>> will activate the second pair that is
>>>>>> commonly used in the RJ-43 port in
>>>>>> your wall. This will allow 2 lines
>>>>>> active to the device.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Changes inside might need to happen
>>>>>> if your residence does not have 4
>>>>>> wire (2 line) compatibility. (IE 2
>>>>>> pairs to the jack vs 1 pair)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 9:10 PM Jim
>>>>>> via PLUG-discuss
>>>>>> <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>>>>>> <mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Where I live, I get AT&T for my
>>>>>> DSL service. I've signed up for an
>>>>>> upgrade from 10 Mbps to 25. I
>>>>>> finally got someone there who
>>>>>> would tell
>>>>>> me why a technician visit is
>>>>>> required for the upgrade. They're
>>>>>> bonding 2
>>>>>> pairs to supply the faster speed
>>>>>> here. I've read up online about DSL
>>>>>> bonding. I understand that one
>>>>>> pair will carry some of the data,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> the other pair will carry some.
>>>>>> But one thing I didn't find out was
>>>>>> whether or not anything will
>>>>>> change between the wall jack and the
>>>>>> modem. Is everything done
>>>>>> outside or do they have to come
>>>>>> inside? I
>>>>>> currently have a 2 conductor cord
>>>>>> connecting my modem to the wall
>>>>>> jack.
>>>>>> Will that have to be replaced
>>>>>> with a 4 conductor cord? Do they
>>>>>> install
>>>>>> an extra box outside or inside?
>>>>>> I guess all will be answered on the
>>>>>> 18th when the guy is scheduled to
>>>>>> be here. I'm really curious how
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> works.
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list -
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>>>>>> <mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>
>>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to
>>>>>> change your mail settings:
>>>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> A mouse trap, placed on top of your
>>>>>> alarm clock, will prevent you from
>>>>>> rolling over and going back to sleep
>>>>>> after you hit the snooze button.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stephen
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>
>>> --
>>> A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will
>>> prevent you from rolling over and going back to sleep after
>>> you hit the snooze button.
>>>
>>> Stephen
>>>
>>>
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