Re: DSL bonding

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Author: Jim via PLUG-discuss
To: Michael Butash
CC: Jim, Main PLUG discussion list
Subject: Re: DSL bonding
Better than a lot of people around here get.  I hope it's available here

On 8/27/20 8:30 AM, Michael Butash wrote:
> Saw this today, interesting.
> -mb
> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 2:09 PM Jim <
> <>> wrote:
>     Wait until Musk's Starlink is available.  Legacy phone companies
>     offering DSL won't have a chance.

>     On 8/22/20 9:05 AM, Michael Butash wrote:
>>     Exactly, this is a common scenario these days, where people are
>>     stuck in their area with their crappy legacy isp's that are
>>     unwilling to invest in upgrading, or even just fixing what they
>>     have today. Take back the power.  This is really on a per-ISP
>>     basis how good they are about doing so, but cable providers seem
>>     WAY ahead of any traditional 2-wire telco.  Cox was actually one
>>     of the best I've worked with, they actually fix old cable plants
>>     they've acquired over time that are sub-standard, at least around
>>     Phoenix.

>>     Back in 2003 when I was looking at doing the residential isp
>>     thing, I tried a few things, including mounting a big ass 2.4ghz
>>     antenna on my house and doing some 802.11 testing outside to see
>>     what sort of performance I'd get even from say my direct
>>     neighbor's house.  It was crap, even using proper cisco
>>     high-power commercial AP's at the time, so mostly scrapped that
>>     as it would be mostly unsupportable and/or unsellable.  There
>>     wasn't any better other than Microwave, which was/is still quite
>>     pricey to do.

>>     Last year working with a Cali municipal ISP in Santa Monica, they
>>     do business and residential last-mile fiber for 1-10gbe
>>     connections, typically much cheaper than anyone there as they
>>     reuse their own city fiber used for traffic and emergency systems
>>     all over the city.  Any sort of construction, particularly street
>>     cuts, gets uber expensive, so we started using some wireless
>>     point to multipoint devices using technically 5g or mm-wave 60ghz
>>     connections that can do I think up to 5 connections per unit,
>>     which were small and non-descript.  We dropped these on a stop
>>     light we were in already, pointed at the general area we wanted
>>     to cover, deployed our first customer in a week.  It helped we
>>     *were* the city to do so, but not to say you can't add a small
>>     tower in your backyard for the hood.

>>     This came with 1gbps rates to each end node, at roughly 1000ft
>>     line of sight, so was a bit more ideal potentially for a
>>     residential wireless isp type of setup, or at least localized
>>     instances, and just needed to get a 1/10g single-mode ethernet
>>     connection to the multipoint unit.  Perfect for neighborhood isp
>>     setups, this was using Siklu components, but Ubiquiti makes them
>>     too, I'm sure others.  Even better after they start showing up on
>>     Ebay cheap.

>>     I love this sort of networking stuff, working around the Man and
>>     such, building ISP's - I'm always happy to help explore these
>>     concepts if someone is serious about wanting to do so.  Who's got
>>     the VC hookups?  Will work for bandwidth.

>>     -mb

>>     On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 11:23 AM Jim via PLUG-discuss
>>     <
>>     <>> wrote:

>>         I read something once about a lawyer who set up his own ISP. 
>>         The phone company wouldn't supply DSL to the rural area where
>>         he lived.  The only internet service available was dialup. 
>>         He found that from the roof of his barn, he had line of sight
>>         to the building the law firm had its offices in.  He found
>>         some interested neighbors and set up a microwave link from
>>         his barn to the office.  The local phone company did lease
>>         him the lines he needed to provide DSL to his neighbors.

>>         On 8/20/20 2:28 PM, Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>>>         Part of me really would enjoy setting something like this
>>>         up. The new High speed and dedicated wireless/microwave
>>>         tools we have now are pretty dang phenomenal and could lead
>>>         to a decent wireless/wired hybrid internet service.

>>>         On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 12:19 PM Michael Butash via
>>>         PLUG-discuss <
>>>         <>> wrote:

>>>             I'm not sure I could live somewhere with crap internet,
>>>             I would probably go about forming some sort of local isp
>>>             of sorts if enough folks around to be worth it.  It's
>>>             not exactly hard, backward telcos and cable companies
>>>             can figure it out, it's all capital cost up front and
>>>             who pays for it, ideally more than just you.

>>>             Circa 2003 at cox business, we had some baller customers
>>>             with DS3's to their house (one ran an isp in his
>>>             basement), which really meant we installed an OC3 fiber
>>>             node there, and gave them a third of it. These were
>>>             maybe $2000-3000/mo circuits, but the construction to
>>>             get fiber to their crib alone might be $30-50k.  One
>>>             customer in the middle of a lake community was more to
>>>             build into.  Either they lock you into a 5yr or more
>>>             contract to make that construction cost back, or you pay
>>>             it up front.

>>>             Back then, I worked a lot with the project group that
>>>             did construction, so I sat down with someone and we
>>>             looked at getting fiber to my house for some baller
>>>             service myself, ideally with some employee discount... 
>>>             They estimated roughly $35k in cost alone for
>>>             construction, including construction street cuts to bury
>>>             fiber, permitting, etc, let alone service, and mine
>>>             wasn't terribly complex.  I considered reselling to
>>>             neighbors, but back then expensive gigabit options
>>>             probably weren't too attractive to general consumers in
>>>             2003.  I stuck with my cable modem, they didn't pay that
>>>             well.

>>>             Today that would probably be equivalent to a 10GbE+ drop
>>>             to your house, but at scale of cost most likely.  Resell
>>>             that to your neighbors for some premium bandwidth,
>>>             everyone wins, but presumes your neighbors aren't all
>>>             luddites.  Some rural communities are doing this, when
>>>             AT&T and others aren't shutting them down.

>>>             -mb

>>>             On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 9:19 AM Bob Elzer via
>>>             PLUG-discuss <
>>>             <>> wrote:

>>>                 I'd brush up on fiber splicing  lol

>>>                 On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 1:40 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss
>>>                 <
>>>                 <>> wrote:

>>>                     AT&T is still fscked up.  The tech came out
>>>                     today and told me that the cutoff for the
>>>                     service is 4800 feet and I'm 5136 feet from the
>>>                     box the modem talks to.   He ran some test
>>>                     anyway and confirmed it's not available.  He
>>>                     told me he has heard of no plans to bring fiber
>>>                     to my neighborhood, but said it is available in
>>>                     a small town 5 miles up the road from me in one
>>>                     direction.  3 miles down the road in the other
>>>                     direction is a subdivision that has it.  The
>>>                     fiber runs next to the highway less than a
>>>                     hundred yards from here.  I guess it's time to
>>>                     see what other options if any are available.

>>>                     On 8/16/20 10:39 AM, Michael Butash wrote:
>>>>                     I think it mostly comes down to the fact that
>>>>                     they can only really guarantee 2 or 4 wires to
>>>>                     a premise for residential telco, probably more
>>>>                     modern deployments a full 8 wires (ala CatX),
>>>>                     though their traditional copper distribution
>>>>                     isn't built for it unless commercial (their big
>>>>                     PED on the roads your neighborhood comes back
>>>>                     to. Probably something in the telcordia
>>>>                     standards back to ma bell days that says that
>>>>                     is just how it is.  Since the plants are
>>>>                     non-shielded, non-twisted pair cabling too, it
>>>>                     can only modulate so high, particularly when
>>>>                     poorly run/done, which is why you're stuck at
>>>>                     12mbps.

>>>>                     If they had to change your home copper, they'd
>>>>                     just run fiber, neither will happen likely.

>>>>                     The DSL bonding is already a hack to get more
>>>>                     bandwidth when DSL itself is stuck in time now
>>>>                     at raw theoretical limits.  Combining more
>>>>                     physical channels as these were would be
>>>>                     trivial, if copper were available, and telcos
>>>>                     wanted to support it. Someone would need to
>>>>                     make the modem too.  Technically cable modems
>>>>                     do this, literally taking "channels" or slices
>>>>                     or spectrum on the wire, and load-balancing
>>>>                     them internally, up to 24 or 32 channels for
>>>>                     multi-gig capabilities.  Same with ethernet,
>>>>                     taking 8 into a port-channel and balancing
>>>>                     across them, whether 100 megabit or 400 gigabit
>>>>                     ethernet.

>>>>                     AT&T is the most ghetto provider out there
>>>>                     still, and always has been imho.  Moving to San
>>>>                     Jose in '99, there was AT&T Cable TV installed
>>>>                     by the owners, which consisted of 2x of your
>>>>                     standard coax ala modern cable from the
>>>>                     outside, and required a physical a/b switch box
>>>>                     to switch between 13 channels on one, and 13
>>>>                     channels on another.  First I looked at it, and
>>>>                     was confused enough I had to call them and ask
>>>>                     wtf the cable "channels" worked to realize just
>>>>                     how bad it was, and I then worked for the
>>>>                     original @home cable isp company then
>>>>                     supporting AT&T cable modems!  The images were
>>>>                     even snowy, the service was so bad even a tech
>>>>                     couldn't (read: wouldn't) improve.  When I
>>>>                     asked about a cable modem, they laughed at me,
>>>>                     so I had to get DSL (phat 1.5mbps then),
>>>>                     disconnected the useless cable tv (yay usenet
>>>>            even then), and threw up a
>>>>                     finger to AT&T.

>>>>                     I can only imagine how bad AT&T's DSL is if
>>>>                     they couldn't figure out even coax.  My
>>>>                     experience supporting their customers for Cable
>>>>                     Modem data in '99, relatively new tech then,
>>>>                     wasn't much better, as if the cable plant to
>>>>                     your house was broke, it tended to just stay
>>>>                     broke despite our rolling their techs to fix
>>>>                     it.  Then they'd get angry at us for doing so
>>>>                     and tell us to stop rolling so many trucks to
>>>>                     fix things.

>>>>                     Sigh.

>>>>                     Having grown up in Phoenix where Dimension, and
>>>>                     later Cox actually had their shit (relatively)
>>>>                     together, this was an inconceivable atrocity
>>>>                     but exactly what I'd expect of AT&T.  Thanks to
>>>>                     them (and Comcast, all the media cartels now
>>>>                     really) owning the FCC now with your tax
>>>>                     dollars, it'll never, ever, get better either. 
>>>>                     Good thing Net Neutrality and consumer rights
>>>>                     weren't really needed after all!

>>>>                     -mb

>>>>                     On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 12:42 PM Jim via
>>>>                     PLUG-discuss <
>>>>                     <>> wrote:

>>>>                         150 Mbps, you're lucky. Here AT&T has to
>>>>                         bond 2 pairs so I can get 25 Mbps.    At
>>>>                         least it's not comcast.  I wonder how many
>>>>                         pairs they could bond.  Is there a
>>>>                         technical limit or is it just a matter of
>>>>                         how many they want to bond?  As more people
>>>>                         abandon landlines, that leaves more
>>>>                         capacity for AT&T to bond multiple pairs
>>>>                         for internet customers.

>>>>                         On 8/10/20 11:21 AM, Michael Butash via
>>>>                         PLUG-discuss wrote:
>>>>>                         So I went through this moving from Cox to
>>>>>                         CenturyLink, and pretty much as described,
>>>>>                         fairly painless.

>>>>>                         <tldr>

>>>>>                         I had scheduled a CL tech to install me
>>>>>                         for new service a few years ago, and we
>>>>>                         first hit the outside where CL ran their
>>>>>                         cabling in.  It was an ancient telephony
>>>>>                         distribution from the 90's, and I've never
>>>>>                         had a land-line in my house since owning
>>>>>                         it in 2002.  My house built in 95 at least
>>>>>                         used cat5 or like, so I have 4 pairs to
>>>>>                         every room, so 2 pairs I need was just
>>>>>                         fine for bonded DSL  He ripped out the old
>>>>>                         block, removing the house cabling but the
>>>>>                         one, and isolated the particular line we
>>>>>                         needed to my office where the modem lives,
>>>>>                         added an approved jack, done.  Bonded dsl
>>>>>                         is 2x 2-wire channels, and they
>>>>>                         essentially load-balance 75+75mbps
>>>>>                         channels.  I have tested this to n-by
>>>>>                         gigabit upstreams.

>>>>>                         Phone only guarantees 2 wires are
>>>>>                         available, so telcos built on this 100
>>>>>                         years ago are a bit assed-out on passable
>>>>>                         high-frequency modulation schemas in use
>>>>>                         for data and other things to move beyond
>>>>>                         where they're at.  DSL makes up for this,
>>>>>                         particularly when double up on wires it
>>>>>                         gets better, but still unshielded and
>>>>>                         prone to breakdown.  Problem is mostly it
>>>>>                         isn't shielded, thus capable of very high
>>>>>                         frequency modulation ala Cable/DOCSIS, so
>>>>>                         it will never go much further than it has
>>>>>                         today whereas Cable scales to gigabits
>>>>>                         with channelization and QAM modulation at
>>>>>                         32bit rates.

>>>>>                         VDSL tech is capable of roughly 75mbps per
>>>>>                         channel, and 2x of these get you to around
>>>>>                         CL's bonded DSL limits. This also includes
>>>>>                         your distance limitations to your local
>>>>>                         DSLAM, or regional router that terminates
>>>>>                         your data that degrades this eventually
>>>>>                         further you are from it, so it's a bit
>>>>>                         tricky.  It's been stuck here for years,
>>>>>                         and pretty much at life end.  This is why
>>>>>                         my cousin living half a mile from me can
>>>>>                         only get 75mbps from CL and I can with
>>>>>                         bonded @150mbps here. Old crap network there.

>>>>>                         Fiber, particularly Single Mode, gives you
>>>>>                         whatever to ~100GbE, but depends on how
>>>>>                         your provider does low-rate Passive
>>>>>                         Optical Networking (PON) today for
>>>>>                         residential fiber. Not quite the same as a
>>>>>                         business data network, but any fiber is
>>>>>                         better than copper networks.

>>>>>                         Why Centurylink's only hope for the future
>>>>>                         is fiber vs. copper in new builds. I like
>>>>>                         my 25yr old house still, so no fiber for
>>>>>                         me ever. Unless I street cut my block for
>>>>>                         fiber myself, which I've considered, just
>>>>>                         need to get my neighbors to buy into me as
>>>>>                         their new gigabit isp.  ;)

>>>>>                         -mb

>>>>>                         On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 1:27 PM Jim via
>>>>>                         PLUG-discuss
>>>>>                         <
>>>>>                         <>>
>>>>>                         wrote:

>>>>>                             Ok.  I won't complain if I have to go
>>>>>                             out and buy a 4 conductor phone cord.

>>>>>                             On 8/7/20 9:05 AM, Stephen Partington
>>>>>                             wrote:
>>>>>>                             My understanding of this is that they
>>>>>>                             will activate the second pair that is
>>>>>>                             commonly used in the RJ-43 port in
>>>>>>                             your wall. This will allow 2 lines
>>>>>>                             active to the device.

>>>>>>                             Changes inside might need to happen
>>>>>>                             if your residence does not have 4
>>>>>>                             wire (2 line) compatibility. (IE 2
>>>>>>                             pairs to the jack vs 1 pair)

>>>>>>                             On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 9:10 PM Jim
>>>>>>                             via PLUG-discuss
>>>>>>                             <
>>>>>>                             <>>
>>>>>>                             wrote:

>>>>>>                                 Where I live, I get AT&T for my
>>>>>>                                 DSL service.  I've signed up for an
>>>>>>                                 upgrade from 10 Mbps to 25.  I
>>>>>>                                 finally got someone there who
>>>>>>                                 would tell
>>>>>>                                 me why a technician visit is
>>>>>>                                 required for the upgrade. They're
>>>>>>                                 bonding 2
>>>>>>                                 pairs to supply the faster speed
>>>>>>                                 here.  I've read up online about DSL
>>>>>>                                 bonding.  I understand that one
>>>>>>                                 pair will carry some of the data,
>>>>>>                                 and
>>>>>>                                 the other pair will carry some. 
>>>>>>                                 But one thing I didn't find out was
>>>>>>                                 whether or not anything will
>>>>>>                                 change between the wall jack and the
>>>>>>                                 modem.  Is everything done
>>>>>>                                 outside or do they have to come
>>>>>>                                 inside?  I
>>>>>>                                 currently have a 2 conductor cord
>>>>>>                                 connecting my modem to the wall
>>>>>>                                 jack.
>>>>>>                                 Will that have to be replaced
>>>>>>                                 with a 4 conductor cord?  Do they
>>>>>>                                 install
>>>>>>                                 an extra box outside or inside? 
>>>>>>                                 I guess all will be answered on the
>>>>>>                                 18th when the guy is scheduled to
>>>>>>                                 be here.   I'm really curious how
>>>>>>                                 this
>>>>>>                                 works.
>>>>>>                                 ---------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>>                             -- 
>>>>>>                             A mouse trap, placed on top of your
>>>>>>                             alarm clock, will prevent you from
>>>>>>                             rolling over and going back to sleep
>>>>>>                             after you hit the snooze button.

>>>>>>                             Stephen

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>>>         -- 
>>>         A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will
>>>         prevent you from rolling over and going back to sleep after
>>>         you hit the snooze button.

>>>         Stephen

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