Better than a lot of people around here get.  I hope it's available here soon. On 8/27/20 8:30 AM, Michael Butash wrote: > Saw this today, interesting. > > https://testmy.net/hoststats/spacex_starlink > > -mb > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 2:09 PM Jim > wrote: > > Wait until Musk's Starlink is available.  Legacy phone companies > offering DSL won't have a chance. > > On 8/22/20 9:05 AM, Michael Butash wrote: >> Exactly, this is a common scenario these days, where people are >> stuck in their area with their crappy legacy isp's that are >> unwilling to invest in upgrading, or even just fixing what they >> have today. Take back the power.  This is really on a per-ISP >> basis how good they are about doing so, but cable providers seem >> WAY ahead of any traditional 2-wire telco.  Cox was actually one >> of the best I've worked with, they actually fix old cable plants >> they've acquired over time that are sub-standard, at least around >> Phoenix. >> >> Back in 2003 when I was looking at doing the residential isp >> thing, I tried a few things, including mounting a big ass 2.4ghz >> antenna on my house and doing some 802.11 testing outside to see >> what sort of performance I'd get even from say my direct >> neighbor's house.  It was crap, even using proper cisco >> high-power commercial AP's at the time, so mostly scrapped that >> as it would be mostly unsupportable and/or unsellable.  There >> wasn't any better other than Microwave, which was/is still quite >> pricey to do. >> >> Last year working with a Cali municipal ISP in Santa Monica, they >> do business and residential last-mile fiber for 1-10gbe >> connections, typically much cheaper than anyone there as they >> reuse their own city fiber used for traffic and emergency systems >> all over the city.  Any sort of construction, particularly street >> cuts, gets uber expensive, so we started using some wireless >> point to multipoint devices using technically 5g or mm-wave 60ghz >> connections that can do I think up to 5 connections per unit, >> which were small and non-descript.  We dropped these on a stop >> light we were in already, pointed at the general area we wanted >> to cover, deployed our first customer in a week.  It helped we >> *were* the city to do so, but not to say you can't add a small >> tower in your backyard for the hood. >> >> This came with 1gbps rates to each end node, at roughly 1000ft >> line of sight, so was a bit more ideal potentially for a >> residential wireless isp type of setup, or at least localized >> instances, and just needed to get a 1/10g single-mode ethernet >> connection to the multipoint unit.  Perfect for neighborhood isp >> setups, this was using Siklu components, but Ubiquiti makes them >> too, I'm sure others.  Even better after they start showing up on >> Ebay cheap. >> >> I love this sort of networking stuff, working around the Man and >> such, building ISP's - I'm always happy to help explore these >> concepts if someone is serious about wanting to do so.  Who's got >> the VC hookups?  Will work for bandwidth. >> >> -mb >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 11:23 AM Jim via PLUG-discuss >> > > wrote: >> >> I read something once about a lawyer who set up his own ISP.  >> The phone company wouldn't supply DSL to the rural area where >> he lived.  The only internet service available was dialup.  >> He found that from the roof of his barn, he had line of sight >> to the building the law firm had its offices in.  He found >> some interested neighbors and set up a microwave link from >> his barn to the office.  The local phone company did lease >> him the lines he needed to provide DSL to his neighbors. >> >> On 8/20/20 2:28 PM, Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss wrote: >>> Part of me really would enjoy setting something like this >>> up. The new High speed and dedicated wireless/microwave >>> tools we have now are pretty dang phenomenal and could lead >>> to a decent wireless/wired hybrid internet service. >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 12:19 PM Michael Butash via >>> PLUG-discuss >> > wrote: >>> >>> I'm not sure I could live somewhere with crap internet, >>> I would probably go about forming some sort of local isp >>> of sorts if enough folks around to be worth it.  It's >>> not exactly hard, backward telcos and cable companies >>> can figure it out, it's all capital cost up front and >>> who pays for it, ideally more than just you. >>> >>> Circa 2003 at cox business, we had some baller customers >>> with DS3's to their house (one ran an isp in his >>> basement), which really meant we installed an OC3 fiber >>> node there, and gave them a third of it. These were >>> maybe $2000-3000/mo circuits, but the construction to >>> get fiber to their crib alone might be $30-50k.  One >>> customer in the middle of a lake community was more to >>> build into.  Either they lock you into a 5yr or more >>> contract to make that construction cost back, or you pay >>> it up front. >>> >>> Back then, I worked a lot with the project group that >>> did construction, so I sat down with someone and we >>> looked at getting fiber to my house for some baller >>> service myself, ideally with some employee discount...  >>> They estimated roughly $35k in cost alone for >>> construction, including construction street cuts to bury >>> fiber, permitting, etc, let alone service, and mine >>> wasn't terribly complex.  I considered reselling to >>> neighbors, but back then expensive gigabit options >>> probably weren't too attractive to general consumers in >>> 2003.  I stuck with my cable modem, they didn't pay that >>> well. >>> >>> Today that would probably be equivalent to a 10GbE+ drop >>> to your house, but at scale of cost most likely.  Resell >>> that to your neighbors for some premium bandwidth, >>> everyone wins, but presumes your neighbors aren't all >>> luddites.  Some rural communities are doing this, when >>> AT&T and others aren't shutting them down. >>> >>> -mb >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 9:19 AM Bob Elzer via >>> PLUG-discuss >> > wrote: >>> >>> I'd brush up on fiber splicing  lol >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 1:40 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> AT&T is still fscked up.  The tech came out >>> today and told me that the cutoff for the >>> service is 4800 feet and I'm 5136 feet from the >>> box the modem talks to.   He ran some test >>> anyway and confirmed it's not available.  He >>> told me he has heard of no plans to bring fiber >>> to my neighborhood, but said it is available in >>> a small town 5 miles up the road from me in one >>> direction.  3 miles down the road in the other >>> direction is a subdivision that has it.  The >>> fiber runs next to the highway less than a >>> hundred yards from here.  I guess it's time to >>> see what other options if any are available. >>> >>> On 8/16/20 10:39 AM, Michael Butash wrote: >>>> I think it mostly comes down to the fact that >>>> they can only really guarantee 2 or 4 wires to >>>> a premise for residential telco, probably more >>>> modern deployments a full 8 wires (ala CatX), >>>> though their traditional copper distribution >>>> isn't built for it unless commercial (their big >>>> PED on the roads your neighborhood comes back >>>> to. Probably something in the telcordia >>>> standards back to ma bell days that says that >>>> is just how it is.  Since the plants are >>>> non-shielded, non-twisted pair cabling too, it >>>> can only modulate so high, particularly when >>>> poorly run/done, which is why you're stuck at >>>> 12mbps. >>>> >>>> If they had to change your home copper, they'd >>>> just run fiber, neither will happen likely. >>>> >>>> The DSL bonding is already a hack to get more >>>> bandwidth when DSL itself is stuck in time now >>>> at raw theoretical limits.  Combining more >>>> physical channels as these were would be >>>> trivial, if copper were available, and telcos >>>> wanted to support it. Someone would need to >>>> make the modem too.  Technically cable modems >>>> do this, literally taking "channels" or slices >>>> or spectrum on the wire, and load-balancing >>>> them internally, up to 24 or 32 channels for >>>> multi-gig capabilities.  Same with ethernet, >>>> taking 8 into a port-channel and balancing >>>> across them, whether 100 megabit or 400 gigabit >>>> ethernet. >>>> >>>> AT&T is the most ghetto provider out there >>>> still, and always has been imho.  Moving to San >>>> Jose in '99, there was AT&T Cable TV installed >>>> by the owners, which consisted of 2x of your >>>> standard coax ala modern cable from the >>>> outside, and required a physical a/b switch box >>>> to switch between 13 channels on one, and 13 >>>> channels on another.  First I looked at it, and >>>> was confused enough I had to call them and ask >>>> wtf the cable "channels" worked to realize just >>>> how bad it was, and I then worked for the >>>> original @home cable isp company then >>>> supporting AT&T cable modems!  The images were >>>> even snowy, the service was so bad even a tech >>>> couldn't (read: wouldn't) improve.  When I >>>> asked about a cable modem, they laughed at me, >>>> so I had to get DSL (phat 1.5mbps then), >>>> disconnected the useless cable tv (yay usenet >>>> alt.binaries.video even then), and threw up a >>>> finger to AT&T. >>>> >>>> I can only imagine how bad AT&T's DSL is if >>>> they couldn't figure out even coax.  My >>>> experience supporting their customers for Cable >>>> Modem data in '99, relatively new tech then, >>>> wasn't much better, as if the cable plant to >>>> your house was broke, it tended to just stay >>>> broke despite our rolling their techs to fix >>>> it.  Then they'd get angry at us for doing so >>>> and tell us to stop rolling so many trucks to >>>> fix things. >>>> >>>> Sigh. >>>> >>>> Having grown up in Phoenix where Dimension, and >>>> later Cox actually had their shit (relatively) >>>> together, this was an inconceivable atrocity >>>> but exactly what I'd expect of AT&T.  Thanks to >>>> them (and Comcast, all the media cartels now >>>> really) owning the FCC now with your tax >>>> dollars, it'll never, ever, get better either.  >>>> Good thing Net Neutrality and consumer rights >>>> weren't really needed after all! >>>> >>>> -mb >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 12:42 PM Jim via >>>> PLUG-discuss >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> 150 Mbps, you're lucky. Here AT&T has to >>>> bond 2 pairs so I can get 25 Mbps.    At >>>> least it's not comcast.  I wonder how many >>>> pairs they could bond.  Is there a >>>> technical limit or is it just a matter of >>>> how many they want to bond?  As more people >>>> abandon landlines, that leaves more >>>> capacity for AT&T to bond multiple pairs >>>> for internet customers. >>>> >>>> On 8/10/20 11:21 AM, Michael Butash via >>>> PLUG-discuss wrote: >>>>> So I went through this moving from Cox to >>>>> CenturyLink, and pretty much as described, >>>>> fairly painless. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I had scheduled a CL tech to install me >>>>> for new service a few years ago, and we >>>>> first hit the outside where CL ran their >>>>> cabling in.  It was an ancient telephony >>>>> distribution from the 90's, and I've never >>>>> had a land-line in my house since owning >>>>> it in 2002.  My house built in 95 at least >>>>> used cat5 or like, so I have 4 pairs to >>>>> every room, so 2 pairs I need was just >>>>> fine for bonded DSL  He ripped out the old >>>>> block, removing the house cabling but the >>>>> one, and isolated the particular line we >>>>> needed to my office where the modem lives, >>>>> added an approved jack, done.  Bonded dsl >>>>> is 2x 2-wire channels, and they >>>>> essentially load-balance 75+75mbps >>>>> channels.  I have tested this to n-by >>>>> gigabit upstreams. >>>>> >>>>> Phone only guarantees 2 wires are >>>>> available, so telcos built on this 100 >>>>> years ago are a bit assed-out on passable >>>>> high-frequency modulation schemas in use >>>>> for data and other things to move beyond >>>>> where they're at.  DSL makes up for this, >>>>> particularly when double up on wires it >>>>> gets better, but still unshielded and >>>>> prone to breakdown.  Problem is mostly it >>>>> isn't shielded, thus capable of very high >>>>> frequency modulation ala Cable/DOCSIS, so >>>>> it will never go much further than it has >>>>> today whereas Cable scales to gigabits >>>>> with channelization and QAM modulation at >>>>> 32bit rates. >>>>> >>>>> VDSL tech is capable of roughly 75mbps per >>>>> channel, and 2x of these get you to around >>>>> CL's bonded DSL limits. This also includes >>>>> your distance limitations to your local >>>>> DSLAM, or regional router that terminates >>>>> your data that degrades this eventually >>>>> further you are from it, so it's a bit >>>>> tricky.  It's been stuck here for years, >>>>> and pretty much at life end.  This is why >>>>> my cousin living half a mile from me can >>>>> only get 75mbps from CL and I can with >>>>> bonded @150mbps here. Old crap network there. >>>>> >>>>> Fiber, particularly Single Mode, gives you >>>>> whatever to ~100GbE, but depends on how >>>>> your provider does low-rate Passive >>>>> Optical Networking (PON) today for >>>>> residential fiber. Not quite the same as a >>>>> business data network, but any fiber is >>>>> better than copper networks. >>>>> >>>>> Why Centurylink's only hope for the future >>>>> is fiber vs. copper in new builds. I like >>>>> my 25yr old house still, so no fiber for >>>>> me ever. Unless I street cut my block for >>>>> fiber myself, which I've considered, just >>>>> need to get my neighbors to buy into me as >>>>> their new gigabit isp.  ;) >>>>> >>>>> -mb >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 1:27 PM Jim via >>>>> PLUG-discuss >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Ok.  I won't complain if I have to go >>>>> out and buy a 4 conductor phone cord. >>>>> >>>>> On 8/7/20 9:05 AM, Stephen Partington >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> My understanding of this is that they >>>>>> will activate the second pair that is >>>>>> commonly used in the RJ-43 port in >>>>>> your wall. This will allow 2 lines >>>>>> active to the device. >>>>>> >>>>>> Changes inside might need to happen >>>>>> if your residence does not have 4 >>>>>> wire (2 line) compatibility. (IE 2 >>>>>> pairs to the jack vs 1 pair) >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 9:10 PM Jim >>>>>> via PLUG-discuss >>>>>> >>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Where I live, I get AT&T for my >>>>>> DSL service.  I've signed up for an >>>>>> upgrade from 10 Mbps to 25.  I >>>>>> finally got someone there who >>>>>> would tell >>>>>> me why a technician visit is >>>>>> required for the upgrade. They're >>>>>> bonding 2 >>>>>> pairs to supply the faster speed >>>>>> here.  I've read up online about DSL >>>>>> bonding.  I understand that one >>>>>> pair will carry some of the data, >>>>>> and >>>>>> the other pair will carry some.  >>>>>> But one thing I didn't find out was >>>>>> whether or not anything will >>>>>> change between the wall jack and the >>>>>> modem.  Is everything done >>>>>> outside or do they have to come >>>>>> inside?  I >>>>>> currently have a 2 conductor cord >>>>>> connecting my modem to the wall >>>>>> jack. >>>>>> Will that have to be replaced >>>>>> with a 4 conductor cord?  Do they >>>>>> install >>>>>> an extra box outside or inside?  >>>>>> I guess all will be answered on the >>>>>> 18th when the guy is scheduled to >>>>>> be here.   I'm really curious how >>>>>> this >>>>>> works. >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - >>>>>> PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>>> >>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to >>>>>> change your mail settings: >>>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> A mouse trap, placed on top of your >>>>>> alarm clock, will prevent you from >>>>>> rolling over and going back to sleep >>>>>> after you hit the snooze button. >>>>>> >>>>>> Stephen >>>>>> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - >>>>> PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>> >>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to >>>>> change your mail settings: >>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list -PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - >>>> PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>> >>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change >>>> your mail settings: >>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>> >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - >>> PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>> >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your >>> mail settings: >>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - >>> PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>> >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail >>> settings: >>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - >>> PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>> >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will >>> prevent you from rolling over and going back to sleep after >>> you hit the snooze button. >>> >>> Stephen >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> PLUG-discuss mailing list -PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> --------------------------------------------------- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >> >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>