der.hans wrote:
> Am 20. Sep, 2005 schwätzte Josh Coffman so:
>
>
>>I stand corrected.
>>/sits back down and crawls to a dark corner...
>
>
> No need. We would prefer to keep an eye on you, so please step back into
> the light...
>
> Just kidding, of course :).
>
> I think most if not all of us are on the list in order to learn. Most of
> us are not legal experts. Most of us don't want to be legal experts.
>
> Joseph's answer, however, probably helped clarify the issue for most of
> us, so it all works out.
Agreed, Not trying to be beligerent, just trying to provide a bit more clarity.
It's valuable to know the basics, since it helps us explain to people why it's a BAD THING to allow any one entity to be in control of the majority of browsers/desktops/etc...
Also not trying to provide legal advice, IANAL and so forth...
>
> ciao,
>
> der.hans
>
>
>>--- Joseph Sinclair <plug-discuss@stcaz.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>MS is a monopoly. Monopoly is more broadly defined
>>>(for anti-trust purposes) as any single entity that,
>>>by virtue of it's excessive (not necessarily
>>>exclusive) control of a market or market segment, is
>>>able to compete without regard to
>>>it's competitors, if any. It is not actually illegal
>>>to become a monopoly. Microsoft was declared a
>>>monopoly, but that was a supporting point in it's
>>>conviction for monopolizing (using monopoly power in
>>>one industry to restrain trade in another
>>>industry).
>>>
>>>Natural monopolies are what you refer to with
>>>respect to utilities. They are most definitely
>>>monopolies, they're just state-regulated "natural"
>>>monopolies, so they're allowed to bypass a lot of
>>>anti-trust law in return for state control
>>>of their profits, pricing, and other aspects of
>>>their business. Cable companies are able to engage
>>>in some of the most egregious monopoly abuses since
>>>the 1930's simply because they are currently
>>>protected as "natural" monopolies
>>>and the states haven't yet realized that this is no
>>>longer in the best interests of the public.
>>>
>>>There's nothing inherently wrong with becoming a
>>>monopoly if you do so by way of fair competition.
>>>What's illegal and wrong is taking action to
>>>restrict, restrain, or avoid competition, whether
>>>you're a monopoly or not. Even if a
>>>company is not a monopoly, it may run afoul of
>>>anti-trust law by engaging in any business
>>>transaction that has the effect of substantially
>>>reducing competition, such as a merger between a
>>>limited number of competitors in a market
>>>(i.e. if Microsoft and Oracle wanted to merge,
>>>they'd be stopped because that would severely harm
>>>competition in enterprise databases by consolidating
>>>roughly 80% market share in one company).
>>>
>>>In Windows 2000 and XP, you would have to remove or
>>>damage shdocvw.dll in order to remove IE, and doing
>>>so would break Office, Outlook, Explorer, help, and
>>>a vast array of other applications. The desktop in
>>>Windows is
>>>actually rendered by the DLL that implements IE, and
>>>removal is not actually possible. It is possible to
>>>remove and/or limit the IE interface, but since the
>>>interface does almost nothing, it doesn't improve
>>>the security of your
>>>system either, and the core of IE is still present
>>>and still poses an anti-competitive threat.
>>>
>>>==Joseph++
>>>
>>>P.S. An oligopoly is a group of companies, no single
>>>company can be an oligopoly. An oligopoly is found
>>>where the market is such that companies are unable
>>>to compete solely on price, usually due to high
>>>consumer awareness, limited market,
>>>or inherent pricing characteristics. The Aluminum
>>>industry is an oligopoly, the new car market may
>>>also be an oligopoly. Oligopolies are not
>>>characterized by a lack of competition, rather by
>>>competition on non-price factors, such as
>>>corporate image, product appearance, marketing
>>>skill, or physical location. The Cola market (if we
>>>only look at Coke and Pepsi) is another example of
>>>an oligopoly (they compete almost entirely on taste,
>>>not price).
>>>Oligopolies encounter legal challenges when the
>>>competing companies start agreeing with each other
>>>in ways that restrain free trade (price-fixing,
>>>market division, boundary setting, etc...), even if
>>>those agreements are informal.
>>>
>>>Josh Coffman wrote:
>>>
>>>>I never ran into any of those IE-linked apps, but
>>>
>>>I
>>>
>>>>can see how, as a programmer, that might be.
>>>
>>>(Using a
>>>
>>>>path to launch the browser instead of the system
>>>>default setting. generally a bad progamming to do
>>>>that.)
>>>>
>>>>I also never bought into that monopoly thing... MS
>>>>isn't a monopoly; it is(was?) an oligopoly. I'm
>>>
>>>not
>>>
>>>>sure if that's the right word, but basically a
>>>
>>>seller
>>>
>>>>or group of sellers that have such a large portion
>>>
>>>of
>>>
>>>>the market that thay basically have a strangle
>>>
>>>hold of
>>>
>>>>potential buyers. Like a monopoly, but not an
>>>
>>>absence
>>>
>>>>of choices. Problem for the MS-is-monopoly crowd
>>>
>>>is
>>>
>>>>that an oligopoly isn't illegal. Otherwise, the
>>>>utility companies would also be in violation.
>>>>
>>>>I recall reading some how-to to really remove IE,
>>>
>>>but
>>>
>>>>I figured it was more work than I cared for. and,
>>>
>>>if I
>>>
>>>>wanted, there is a certain dll that could be
>>>
>>>altered
>>>
>>>>or removed to criple IE (and possibly IP sockets).
>>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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