der.hans wrote: > Am 20. Sep, 2005 schwätzte Josh Coffman so: > > >>I stand corrected. >>/sits back down and crawls to a dark corner... > > > No need. We would prefer to keep an eye on you, so please step back into > the light... > > Just kidding, of course :). > > I think most if not all of us are on the list in order to learn. Most of > us are not legal experts. Most of us don't want to be legal experts. > > Joseph's answer, however, probably helped clarify the issue for most of > us, so it all works out. Agreed, Not trying to be beligerent, just trying to provide a bit more clarity. It's valuable to know the basics, since it helps us explain to people why it's a BAD THING to allow any one entity to be in control of the majority of browsers/desktops/etc... Also not trying to provide legal advice, IANAL and so forth... > > ciao, > > der.hans > > >>--- Joseph Sinclair wrote: >> >> >>>MS is a monopoly. Monopoly is more broadly defined >>>(for anti-trust purposes) as any single entity that, >>>by virtue of it's excessive (not necessarily >>>exclusive) control of a market or market segment, is >>>able to compete without regard to >>>it's competitors, if any. It is not actually illegal >>>to become a monopoly. Microsoft was declared a >>>monopoly, but that was a supporting point in it's >>>conviction for monopolizing (using monopoly power in >>>one industry to restrain trade in another >>>industry). >>> >>>Natural monopolies are what you refer to with >>>respect to utilities. They are most definitely >>>monopolies, they're just state-regulated "natural" >>>monopolies, so they're allowed to bypass a lot of >>>anti-trust law in return for state control >>>of their profits, pricing, and other aspects of >>>their business. Cable companies are able to engage >>>in some of the most egregious monopoly abuses since >>>the 1930's simply because they are currently >>>protected as "natural" monopolies >>>and the states haven't yet realized that this is no >>>longer in the best interests of the public. >>> >>>There's nothing inherently wrong with becoming a >>>monopoly if you do so by way of fair competition. >>>What's illegal and wrong is taking action to >>>restrict, restrain, or avoid competition, whether >>>you're a monopoly or not. Even if a >>>company is not a monopoly, it may run afoul of >>>anti-trust law by engaging in any business >>>transaction that has the effect of substantially >>>reducing competition, such as a merger between a >>>limited number of competitors in a market >>>(i.e. if Microsoft and Oracle wanted to merge, >>>they'd be stopped because that would severely harm >>>competition in enterprise databases by consolidating >>>roughly 80% market share in one company). >>> >>>In Windows 2000 and XP, you would have to remove or >>>damage shdocvw.dll in order to remove IE, and doing >>>so would break Office, Outlook, Explorer, help, and >>>a vast array of other applications. The desktop in >>>Windows is >>>actually rendered by the DLL that implements IE, and >>>removal is not actually possible. It is possible to >>>remove and/or limit the IE interface, but since the >>>interface does almost nothing, it doesn't improve >>>the security of your >>>system either, and the core of IE is still present >>>and still poses an anti-competitive threat. >>> >>>==Joseph++ >>> >>>P.S. An oligopoly is a group of companies, no single >>>company can be an oligopoly. An oligopoly is found >>>where the market is such that companies are unable >>>to compete solely on price, usually due to high >>>consumer awareness, limited market, >>>or inherent pricing characteristics. The Aluminum >>>industry is an oligopoly, the new car market may >>>also be an oligopoly. Oligopolies are not >>>characterized by a lack of competition, rather by >>>competition on non-price factors, such as >>>corporate image, product appearance, marketing >>>skill, or physical location. The Cola market (if we >>>only look at Coke and Pepsi) is another example of >>>an oligopoly (they compete almost entirely on taste, >>>not price). >>>Oligopolies encounter legal challenges when the >>>competing companies start agreeing with each other >>>in ways that restrain free trade (price-fixing, >>>market division, boundary setting, etc...), even if >>>those agreements are informal. >>> >>>Josh Coffman wrote: >>> >>>>I never ran into any of those IE-linked apps, but >>> >>>I >>> >>>>can see how, as a programmer, that might be. >>> >>>(Using a >>> >>>>path to launch the browser instead of the system >>>>default setting. generally a bad progamming to do >>>>that.) >>>> >>>>I also never bought into that monopoly thing... MS >>>>isn't a monopoly; it is(was?) an oligopoly. I'm >>> >>>not >>> >>>>sure if that's the right word, but basically a >>> >>>seller >>> >>>>or group of sellers that have such a large portion >>> >>>of >>> >>>>the market that thay basically have a strangle >>> >>>hold of >>> >>>>potential buyers. Like a monopoly, but not an >>> >>>absence >>> >>>>of choices. Problem for the MS-is-monopoly crowd >>> >>>is >>> >>>>that an oligopoly isn't illegal. Otherwise, the >>>>utility companies would also be in violation. >>>> >>>>I recall reading some how-to to really remove IE, >>> >>>but >>> >>>>I figured it was more work than I cared for. and, >>> >>>if I >>> >>>>wanted, there is a certain dll that could be >>> >>>altered >>> >>>>or removed to criple IE (and possibly IP sockets). >>>> >>> >>>--------------------------------------------------- >>>PLUG-discuss mailing list - >>>PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us >>>To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change you mail >>>settings: >>> >> >>http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> >> >> >> >>__________________________________ >>Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 >>http://mail.yahoo.com >>--------------------------------------------------- >>PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us >>To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change you mail settings: >>http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> > > --------------------------------------------------- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change you mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss