Why Open Source Sucks for the Consumer

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Author: Tilby, Lynn # PHX
Date:  
Subject: Why Open Source Sucks for the Consumer
As if M$ REALLY is!!!!! ready for primetime.... compared to the well
established UNIX platforms... HP, SUN, IBM, M$ sucks the BIG one!!!!

Looking at the BIG picture Linux is an early adolescent of a SUN or HP. M$
is not even in the same universe, you are REALLY comparing rocks and
peaches!

Lynn P. Tilby 


> -----Original Message-----
> From:    
> [SMTP:]
> Sent:    Monday, August 28, 2000 9:13 AM
> To:    
> Subject:    Plug-discuss digest, Vol 1 #442 - 10 msgs

>
> 
> Send Plug-discuss mailing list submissions to
>     

> 
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>     

>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
> "Re: Contents of Plug-discuss digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. RE: New business startup help/suggestions/info needed (Lucas Vogel)
> 2. RE: New business startup help/suggestions/info needed (rleonard)
> 3. Re: FW: Why Open Source Sucks for the Consumer (Nathan Saper)
> 4. Re: FW: Why Open Source Sucks for the Consumer (Shawn T. Rutledge)
> 5. Re: FW: Why Open Source Sucks for the Consumer
> ()
> 6. Re: FW: Why Open Source Sucks for the Consumer (John W)
> 7. Re: FW: Why Open Source Sucks for the Consumer (der.hans)
> 8. mp3 bitrate ()
> 9. Re: New business startup help/suggestions/info needed
> ()
> 10. New business startup help/suggestions/info needed (Tilby, Lynn #
> PHX)
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 1
> From: Lucas Vogel <>
> To: "''"
> <>
> Subject: RE: New business startup help/suggestions/info needed
> Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 12:17:40 -0700
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Reply-To:
>
> uh...while I share a love for good barbeque with my fellow PLUGers, I do
> think we're really getting off-topic here...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan Dayley [mailto:alandd@consultpros.com]
> Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 9:28 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: New business startup help/suggestions/info needed
>
>
> Joe's Real Barbecue, to the annoyance of some people, got a zoning
> variance
> to build two smoking ovens. I don't remember what hard wood they use, it
> is not oak or mesquite though... I'm drawing a blank.
>
> IMO the zoning variance was worth it!
>
> Alan
>
> At 11:16 AM 8/27/00 -0400, you wrote:
> >Allright I'll have to go check it out. I was thinking about it last night
> >some more. Probably, why there aren't more barbeque places in Phoenix is
> the
> >ready lack of slow-burning live-oak or post-oak wood. Pine burns too
> quick,
> >and there's not that much of it here in town, and mesquite, although
> >slower-burning tends to come in little sticks that burns too quickly.
> Also,
> >it's probably too hot to have decent outdoor brick overs here of any
> size.
> >
> >Keith Deterling
> >
> >________________________________________________
> >See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail doesn't
> >post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail.
> >
> >Plug-discuss mailing list -
> >http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
>
> ________________________________________________
> See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail doesn't
> post
> to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail.
>
> Plug-discuss mailing list -
> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 2
> From: "rleonard" <>
> To: <>
> Subject: RE: New business startup help/suggestions/info needed
> Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 12:47:09 -0700
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Reply-To:
>
> not if the smoking ovens are gpl (good pork loin) and open sourced....
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> >uh...while I share a love for good barbeque with my fellow PLUGers, I do
> >think we're really getting off-topic here...
>
>
> >>Joe's Real Barbecue, to the annoyance of some people, got a zoning
> variance
> >>to build two smoking ovens. I don't remember what hard wood they use,
> it
> >>is not oak or mesquite though... I'm drawing a blank.
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 20:43:56 +0000 (GMT)
> From: Nathan Saper <>
> To: PLUG-Discuss <>
> Subject: Re: FW: Why Open Source Sucks for the Consumer
> Reply-To:
>
> > On Sun, 27 Aug 2000, J.L.Francois wrote:
>
> > Looks like a case of RTFM.
> > See my rant below.
> >
> > It seems like on Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 09:53:13PM -0700, Lucas Vogel
> scribbled:
> > Orig Msg>
> > Orig Msg> > Linux is not only not ready for prime time its not even
> ready for
> > Orig Msg> > pay-per-view.
> > Orig Msg>
> > Orig Msg> Hear, hear. Amen.
> > Orig Msg>
> > Orig Msg> I *still* haven't figured out how to tell my machine the
> proper
> > Orig Msg> timezone (there's a configuration program that appears to let
> me set
> > Orig Msg> it, but it's utterly ignored).
> >
> > Linux is ready for the Prime Time depending on what you use it for.
> >
> > I have 9 Debian Linux machines humming along nicely serving various
> > server functions with no issues on X86 and Sparc hardware.
> >
> > I do not wast energy trying to get my Linux installations to
> > behave like my Windows installation.
> >
> [snip]
>
> I guess we shouldn't be surprised. IIRC, Python was first developed on a
> Macintosh.
>
> - --
>
> Nathan Saper
> (PGP)
> http://www.well.com/user/natedog/
> PGP Key ID: 9AD0F382
> PGP Key Fingerprint: 743D FE2C 7F2E 7CAE 4A5F 0B19 D855 B205 9AD0 F382
> Fidonet: 1:114/59.10
> >
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 14:54:22 -0700
> From: "Shawn T. Rutledge" <>
> To:
> Subject: Re: FW: Why Open Source Sucks for the Consumer
> Reply-To:
>
> > > From: Guido van Rossum [mailto:guido@beopen.com]
> > > Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 11:18 AM
> > > To: Jean Camp
> > > Cc:
> > > Subject: Re: Why Open Source Sucks for the Consumer
> > >
> > >
> > > > Linux is not only not ready for prime time its not even ready for
> > > > pay-per-view.
> > >
> > > Hear, hear. Amen.
> > >
> > > I *still* haven't figured out how to tell my machine the proper
> > > timezone (there's a configuration program that appears to let me set
> > > it, but it's utterly ignored).
>
> I never had any trouble with doing that during initial setup, but
> I'm not sure how to change it without RTFMing. On a Debian system,
> at least you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it will be under
> /etc somewhere.
> > >
> > > Floppy management is pathetic (the default in this -- commercially
> > > "supported") version isn't even good to read/write DOS floppies, the
> > > only relevant exchange format).
>
> Well I always thought it'd be nice if something would detect insertion
> of a floppy and try to mount it automatically, instead of that being a
> separate operation. I know it should be possible; floppy drives have
> a switch which the OS can read the state of, telling whether there is
> a disk or not. But the problem with that idea is that you can also
> eject the disk manually. The Mac got it right - there is no way you
> can eject the disk without involving the OS in the process, therefore
> it will have a chance to do any last-minute writing beforehand.
>
> As it is, I have the Gnome mount buttons on my panel for all my
> removable-media drives, and it's not too bad to have to click on it
> to mount or unmount the disk.
> > >
> > > I can't sync my palmpilot -- there's an application, but configuration
> > > is impossible and there's no information.
>
> I've used both packages available for that, and started writing a
> nettebook conduit sometime last year, but never finished it. The Java
> one was quite friendly, it just didn't have any conduits written for it
> yet, at the time; by now there probably are some. But it should be
> available as a Debian package. And Java stuff in general is not going
> to fit well into the "desktop" until you no longer need a whole separate
> VM instance for each application that you run; it's silly. I don't know
> why Sun hasn't tried to push some kind of standard for that yet - running
> multiple applications, each with their own "main", in a single VM, by
> a command-line means.
>
> PalmPilots may be irrelevant in a year or two, if Linux-based PDAs take
> over. But it could turn into a living hell too, if the only thing they
> have in common is Linux; so far they're all separate development efforts
> with incompatible GUI systems (one uses Java, one uses X) and incompatible
> applications. And I could see them taking different approaches to things
> like the filesystem too (which filesystem? do you put it in memory or
> FLASH? or do you ditch it altogether and just assume that since memory
> is nonvolatile, applications are started once, run forever with no bugs
> and no memory leaks, and there is no need to "save" data onto "disk",
> only to back it up to your desktop machine.)
> 
> -- 
>   _______                   Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD  
>  (_  | |_)          http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud  
>  __) | | \________________________________________________________________
> Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903

>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 5
> From:
> Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 15:52:45 -0700 (MST)
> To:
> Subject: Re: FW: Why Open Source Sucks for the Consumer
> Reply-To:
>
>
>
> >>>Linux is not only not ready for prime time its not even ready for
> >>>pay-per-view.
>
> When speaking of the server this is patently false; when speaking of the
> desktop, it is completely accurate, but with a few qualifications. If
> "prime time" means an ordinary end-user (your barber or your mom), then,
> imho, no, linux is not ready for "prime time."
>
> All of us know that 'end-users'(remember, your barber or your mom):
>
> a) never want to leave the mouse.
> b) want wizards to do everything for them.
> c) don't want to read documentation for 2 hours to find out how to change
> something. (I should amend that to "don't want to read documentation even
> to save their own lives.")
> d) want to use a computer for a specific task (email, web, MP3s) and don't
> _want_ to know how or why the computer does what it does.
> e) fear the command line
> e) uh, the list is endless...
>
> Is linux 'ready' for that? No. The real question is _should_ linux be
> made to accomodate the end-user in those ways. I think there is a segment
> of the community that doesn't want linux ever to be "user friendly" _in
> those ways_.
>
> Now this is the part where someone says "X can be used in just the ways
> you describe." My only answer to that is "sit your barber in front of X
> and see what happens."
>
> What I've stated above has nothing to do with Windows. (well, yes it
> does ;) ). I would not call Windows "user-friendly" either, but it all
> depends on your definition of "user-friendly." My definition of
> user-friendly (and prob. yours) is much different from your barber's.
>
> My definition of user-friendly is "flexible, well-documented, with
> everything under my direct control."
>
> Your proverbial barber wants a black-box that does things _for_ him: he
> wants a AOL. He obviously doesn't want what's "best," he wants what'
> s _easy_.
>
> And yes, part of the problem is that people have had Windows and nothing
> else for so long that they want everything else to work in the same way
> (interface-wise).
>
> just my 2 cents...
>
> todd
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 6
> From: "John W" <>
> To: <>
> Subject: Re: FW: Why Open Source Sucks for the Consumer
> Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 17:55:55 -0700
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Reply-To:
>
> I think you all have made some very valid points in defense of open
> source.
> I also see the validity in the original posters viewpoint. I was weened on
> windows and found some of the way things work in linux to be irritating at
> first. Personally it took me a month of experimenting with Mandrake 7.1
> (that I bought) and it never did run to give up and try some other
> flavors
> of Linux.Then went back to Mandrake tried an ftp install which worked
> perfectly the first time. I persevered with it in light of throwing my
> hands
> up and walking away a number of times. I believe if you really are
> interested in computers linux is the perfect O/S because of the incredble
> capabilities contained within. linux is especially user friendly if you
> like
> to program and want to customize your O/S to your own machine/preferences
> try that with windows huh? Anyways Linux is an adventure to me and I'm
> enjoying it.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 3:52 PM
> Subject: Re: FW: Why Open Source Sucks for the Consumer
>
>
> >
> >
> > >>>Linux is not only not ready for prime time its not even ready for
> > >>>pay-per-view.
> >
> > When speaking of the server this is patently false; when speaking of the
> > desktop, it is completely accurate, but with a few qualifications. If
> > "prime time" means an ordinary end-user (your barber or your mom), then,
> > imho, no, linux is not ready for "prime time."
> >
> > All of us know that 'end-users'(remember, your barber or your mom):
> >
> > a) never want to leave the mouse.
> > b) want wizards to do everything for them.
> > c) don't want to read documentation for 2 hours to find out how to
> change
> > something. (I should amend that to "don't want to read documentation
> even
> > to save their own lives.")
> > d) want to use a computer for a specific task (email, web, MP3s) and
> don't
> > _want_ to know how or why the computer does what it does.
> > e) fear the command line
> > e) uh, the list is endless...
> >
> > Is linux 'ready' for that? No. The real question is _should_ linux be
> > made to accomodate the end-user in those ways. I think there is a
> segment
> > of the community that doesn't want linux ever to be "user friendly" _in
> > those ways_.
> >
> > Now this is the part where someone says "X can be used in just the ways
> > you describe." My only answer to that is "sit your barber in front of X
> > and see what happens."
> >
> > What I've stated above has nothing to do with Windows. (well, yes it
> > does ;) ). I would not call Windows "user-friendly" either, but it all
> > depends on your definition of "user-friendly." My definition of
> > user-friendly (and prob. yours) is much different from your barber's.
> >
> > My definition of user-friendly is "flexible, well-documented, with
> > everything under my direct control."
> >
> > Your proverbial barber wants a black-box that does things _for_ him: he
> > wants a AOL. He obviously doesn't want what's "best," he wants what'
> > s _easy_.
> >
> > And yes, part of the problem is that people have had Windows and nothing
> > else for so long that they want everything else to work in the same way
> > (interface-wise).
> >
> > just my 2 cents...
> >
> > todd
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________________________
> > See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail doesn't
> post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail.
> >
> > Plug-discuss mailing list -
> > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 02:39:38 -0700 (MST)
> From: "der.hans" <>
> To:
> Subject: Re: FW: Why Open Source Sucks for the Consumer
> Reply-To:
>
> Am 27. Aug, 2000 schwäzte so:
>
> > All of us know that 'end-users'(remember, your barber or your mom):
>
> Uh, what's a barber? ;-)
>
> > a) never want to leave the mouse.
>
> It's so much fun to give them 3 buttons :).
>
> > b) want wizards to do everything for them.
> > c) don't want to read documentation for 2 hours to find out how to
> change
> > something. (I should amend that to "don't want to read documentation
> even
> > to save their own lives.")
> > d) want to use a computer for a specific task (email, web, MP3s) and
> don't
> > _want_ to know how or why the computer does what it does.
>
> They don't even want to find out what programs to use, so the window
> managers should come with icons that have titles like "play mp3s", "write
> a document", "web browser", "open a beer", "read email". These can then
> link to whatever default app does the described. If there isn't an app
> that does whatever, open Xemacs. If that doesn't do it, they'll be far too
> confused to find out ;-).
>
> ciao,
>
> der.hans
> --
> # home.pages.de/~lufthans/ www.Opnix.com
> # It's up to the reader to make the book interesting.
> # An author has only the opportunity to make it uninteresting. - der.hans
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 8
> From:
> Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 08:55:43 -0700 (MST)
> To:
> Subject: mp3 bitrate
> Reply-To:
> Reply-To:
>
>
>
> \_ Does anyone know of a CLI command that will return the bitrate of an
> mp3? I
> \_ want to create a list of all of my mp3's with their bitrates appended
> at the
> \_ end of the names.
>
> Try freshmeat 'mp3info', iirc.
>
> David
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 9
> From:
> Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 08:59:18 -0700 (MST)
> To:
> Subject: Re: New business startup help/suggestions/info needed
> <>
> Reply-To:
> Reply-To:
>
>
> \_ Computers and BBQ wouldn't mix too well... too messy.
>
> Get a splash guard/membrane layover like they have in automotive
> industries...proof against many man-made and most biodegradable
> substances. The scary part would be "is the membrane clean enough to
> type on then eat with those same fingers?"
>
> David
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 10
> From: "Tilby, Lynn # PHX" <>
> To:
> Subject: New business startup help/suggestions/info needed
> Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 09:12:00 -0700
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Reply-To:
>
> Cyber-Cafe suggestions:
>
> Try Malls & the airport... I recently tried to use a terminal connection
> place at SLC airport and found out they had only been open a couple of
> weeks
> and were overbooked! A cyber-cafe at each terminal building in the
> Airport
> I think would do VERY well!
>
> Put together a spread sheet. Cross your t's and dot your i's! If you
> are
> disabled you should have NO! problem finding funding all over the
> place!!!!
> The ONLY problem is filling out all the paper work! This is doable!!
>
> Lynn P. Tilby
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:    
> > [SMTP:]
> > Sent:    Saturday, August 26, 2000 8:58 AM
> > To:    
> > Subject:    Plug-discuss digest, Vol 1 #436 - 18 msgs

> >
> > 
> > Send Plug-discuss mailing list submissions to
> >     

> > 
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the web, visit
> >     http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >     
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> >     

> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
> > "Re: Contents of Plug-discuss digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Linux Today (Jim)
> > 2. python: string.replace(..) won't work (Lucas Vogel)
> > 3. Re: diffing special chars ()
> > 4. Re: diffing special chars ()
> > 5. RE: python: string.replace(..) won't work (Lucas Vogel)
> > 6. DeCSS Time-Warner Hypocrisy (Mike Cantrell)
> > 7. Re: DeCSS Time-Warner Hypocrisy (Jim)
> > 8. Re: python: string.replace(..) won't work (der.hans)
> > 9. Re: diffing special chars (der.hans)
> > 10. Re: diffing special chars (der.hans)
> > 11. JLF = Kibo ? (Dennis Sacks)
> > 12. Re: JLF = Kibo ? (Alan Dayley)
> > 13. RE: JLF = Kibo ? (Michael Sheldon)
> > 14. RE: diffing special chars (Lucas Vogel)
> > 15. The Linux Drivers Petition (Lucas Vogel)
> > 16. New business startup help/suggestions/info needed (Hawke)
> > 17. Re: JLF = Kibo ? (J.L.Francois)
> > 18. Re: New business startup help/suggestions/info needed (Dennis
> Sacks)
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 1
> > From: Jim <>
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Linux Today
> > Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 12:24:53 -0700
> > Reply-To:
> >
> > Never mind - it seems to be back up and running
> >
> > On Fri, 25 Aug 2000, you wrote:
> > > Anyone else having trouble getting to the linuxtoday.com website?
> > > --
> > >
> > > Jim
> > >
> > > Always practice safe HEX
> > >
> > > ________________________________________________
> > > See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail
> doesn't
> > post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail.
> > >
> > > Plug-discuss mailing list -
> > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> > --
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > Always practice safe HEX
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 2
> > From: Lucas Vogel <>
> > To: plug1 <>
> > Subject: python: string.replace(..) won't work
> > Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 12:54:18 -0700
> > charset="iso-8859-1"
> > Reply-To:
> >
> > Could someone take a look at this and tell me what's wrong at
> > string.replace()?
> >
> > #Begin code---------------------
> >
> > import string, os, sys, re
> >
> > fName = sys.argv[1]
> > s1 = sys.argv[2]
> > s2 = sys.argv[3]
> >
> > f=open(fName,'rw')
> >
> > s=f.read()
> >
> > print "string.replace(" + `s` + ", " + `s1` + ", " + `s2` + ")"
> > string.replace(s,s1,s2)
> >
> >
> > print "s is now: " + `s` + "\n"
> >
> >
> > #end code-----------------------
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > 
> > -------------------------------------------
> > Lucas Vogel, Software Developer
> > LandWarrior Project
> > Exponent Inc.
> > 
> > phone:    (623)587-6739
> > fax:        (623)587-4187
> > ------------www.exponent.com---------------

> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 13:18:04 -0700
> > From:
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: diffing special chars
> > Reply-To:
> >
> >
> > Seems odd that GNU "diff -r" won't recursively diff
> > the dirs (akin to "dircmp") without choking on filenames
> > that have evil characters. The GNU stuff is usually
> > pretty good.
> >
> > Instead of "tr", could you tell GNU find not to do its
> > shell metacharacter autoescaping thing, and pipe find's
> > output through "strings -a" to strip out the evil
> > characters?
> >
> > Admittedly, the perl solutions are MUCH better, but
> > this technique might "get you by."
> >
> >
> > D
> >
> > * On Thu, Aug 24, 2000 at 05:58:08PM -0700, der.hans wrote:
> > > Am 24. Aug, 2000 schwäzte shadoiOsoulmachine.com so:
> > >
> > > > Maybe piping the output from ls -b or find to tr with some options
> > > > would do the trick.. Maybe using grep to pull out only the ones you
> > > > want to fix for speed..
> > >
> > > With tr I have to take into account all the special chars :(. It won't
> > > change "\ " into " ", since it only works on single chars. Rod's
> > > suggestion of sed looks like it should work, if I can get sed to
> behave
> > > the way it seems it should or failing that find out how sed actually
> > > behaves :). That would actually fix something else for me as well.
> > >
> > > For now I'm using perl on the file after it was created. Already had
> to
> > do
> > > that for something else, so it's not a great sin, just something else
> to
> > > try to move back to shell later on :).
> > >
> > > ciao,
> > >
> > > der.hans
> > > --
> > > H der.hansOLuftHans.com home.pages.de/~lufthans/ www.Opnix.com
> > > H Help Jerry Lewis stamp out M$...oops that's MDA - der.hans
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________________________
> > > See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail
> doesn't
> > post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail.
> > >
> > > Plug-discuss mailing list - Plug-discussOlists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us
> > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 13:28:55 -0700
> > From:
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: diffing special chars
> > Reply-To:
> >
> >
> > Regex Law One:
> > 
> >      One can easily create a regex.

> >
> > Regex Law Two:
> > 
> >      In the time required to decipher a regex,
> >      even a regex written by yourself, one could
> >      have created a new regex from scratch in
> >      one-tenth the time, because of Law One.

> >
> >
> > D
> >
> > * On Thu, Aug 24, 2000 at 08:24:21PM -0700, J.L.Francois wrote:
> > > I just took a look thru my copy of
> > > Mastering Regular Expressions ( O'Reilly ) a.k.a The Owl Book.
> > >
> > > It looks like this can be done in bash but I am not willing to spend
> > > the time creating something that no one will ever be able to
> > > read or modify. It looks a lot easier in Perl.
> > >
> > > Trust me, anyone that has done RegExp scripting knows what I mean
> > > when I say a regexp takes one week to being incomprehensible.
> > >
> > > Get the book and give it a shot. It should be worth it.
> > >
> > > JLF Sends...
> > >
> > > It seems like on Thu, Aug 24, 2000 at 05:58:08PM -0700, der.hans
> > scribbled:
> > > Orig Msg> Am 24. Aug, 2000 schwäzte so:
> > > Orig Msg>
> > > Orig Msg> > Maybe piping the output from ls -b or find to tr with some
> > options
> > > Orig Msg> > would do the trick.. Maybe using grep to pull out only the
> > ones you
> > > Orig Msg> > want to fix for speed..
> > > Orig Msg>
> > > Orig Msg> With tr I have to take into account all the special chars
> :(.
> > It won't
> > > Orig Msg> change "\ " into " ", since it only works on single chars.
> > Rod's
> > > Orig Msg> suggestion of sed looks like it should work, if I can get
> sed
> > to behave
> > > Orig Msg> the way it seems it should or failing that find out how sed
> > actually
> > > Orig Msg> behaves :). That would actually fix something else for me as
> > well.
> > > Orig Msg>
> > > Orig Msg> For now I'm using perl on the file after it was created.
> > Already had to do
> > > Orig Msg> that for something else, so it's not a great sin, just
> > something else to
> > > Orig Msg> try to move back to shell later on :).
> > > Orig Msg>
> > > Orig Msg> ciao,
> > > Orig Msg>
> > > Orig Msg> der.hans
> > >
> > > ________________________________________________
> > > See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail
> doesn't
> > post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail.
> > >
> > > Plug-discuss mailing list -
> > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 5
> > From: Lucas Vogel <>
> > To: plug1 <>
> > Subject: RE: python: string.replace(..) won't work
> > Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 13:30:55 -0700
> > charset="iso-8859-1"
> > Reply-To:
> >
> > Holy cow! Talk about dumb mistakes. I need to catch the output from
> > string.replace into another variable. Sorry for the traffic, everyone.
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Lucas Vogel
> > > Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 12:54 PM
> > > To: plug1
> > > Subject: python: string.replace(..) won't work
> > >
> > >
> > > Could someone take a look at this and tell me what's wrong at
> > > string.replace()?
> > >
> > > #Begin code---------------------
> > >
> > > import string, os, sys, re
> > >
> > > fName = sys.argv[1]
> > > s1 = sys.argv[2]
> > > s2 = sys.argv[3]
> > >
> > > f=open(fName,'rw')
> > >
> > > s=f.read()
> > >
> > > print "string.replace(" + `s` + ", " + `s1` + ", " + `s2` + ")"
> > > string.replace(s,s1,s2)
> > >
> > >
> > > print "s is now: " + `s` + "\n"
> > >
> > >
> > > #end code-----------------------
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > 
> > > -------------------------------------------
> > > Lucas Vogel, Software Developer
> > > LandWarrior Project
> > > Exponent Inc.
> > > 
> > > phone:    (623)587-6739
> > > fax:        (623)587-4187
> > > ------------www.exponent.com---------------

> > >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 15:35:05 -0700 (MST)
> > From: Mike Cantrell <>
> > To:
> > Subject: DeCSS Time-Warner Hypocrisy
> > Reply-To:
> >
> > This was just posted on slashdot.. I love the irony... apparently CNN
> > (owned by Time-Warner) linked to a list of DeCSS mirrors:
> >
> >
> http://scriptingnews.userland.com/backIssues/2000/08/25#anotherProblemForT
> > imewarner
> >
> > Regards,
> > Mike Cantrell
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 7
> > From: Jim <>
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: DeCSS Time-Warner Hypocrisy
> > Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 15:51:24 -0700
> > Reply-To:
> >
> > The link is now gone, but it does point to the total hipocracy of the
> > $-brubbers. Another interesting point to consider is the amicus briefs
> > filed supporting (?) Napster's position right below the CNN story.
> >
> > (both are posted on slashdot)
> >
> > On Fri, 25 Aug 2000, you wrote:
> > > This was just posted on slashdot.. I love the irony... apparently CNN
> > > (owned by Time-Warner) linked to a list of DeCSS mirrors:
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://scriptingnews.userland.com/backIssues/2000/08/25#anotherProblemForT
> > imewarner
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Mike Cantrell
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________________________
> > > See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail
> doesn't
> > post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail.
> > >
> > > Plug-discuss mailing list -
> > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> > --
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > Always practice safe HEX
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 8
> > Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 17:11:19 -0700 (MST)
> > From: "der.hans" <>
> > To: plug1 <>
> > Subject: Re: python: string.replace(..) won't work
> > Reply-To:
> >
> > Am 25. Aug, 2000 schwäzte Lucas Vogel so:
> >
> > > Could someone take a look at this and tell me what's wrong at
> > > string.replace()?
> >
> > Lucas,
> >
> > you should drop these questions on the devel list :). Can't help you
> with
> > python, though :(. Maybe we should see if Jiva is Kiboizing as well as
> JLF
> > :).
> >
> > I'll leave the junk at the bottom for once, just in case he is...
> >
> > ciao,
> >
> > der.hans
> >
> > > #Begin code---------------------
> > >
> > > import string, os, sys, re
> > >
> > > fName = sys.argv[1]
> > > s1 = sys.argv[2]
> > > s2 = sys.argv[3]
> > >
> > > f=open(fName,'rw')
> > >
> > > s=f.read()
> > >
> > > print "string.replace(" + `s` + ", " + `s1` + ", " + `s2` + ")"
> > > string.replace(s,s1,s2)
> > >
> > >
> > > print "s is now: " + `s` + "\n"
> > >
> > >
> > > #end code-----------------------
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > 
> > > -------------------------------------------
> > > Lucas Vogel, Software Developer
> > > LandWarrior Project
> > > Exponent Inc.
> > > 
> > > phone:    (623)587-6739
> > > fax:        (623)587-4187
> > > ------------www.exponent.com---------------

> > >
> > > ________________________________________________
> > > See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail
> doesn't
> > post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail.
> > >
> > > Plug-discuss mailing list -
> > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> > >
> >
> > --
> > # home.pages.de/~lufthans/ www.Opnix.com
> > # Knowledge is useless unless it's shared. - der.hans
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 9
> > Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 17:16:26 -0700 (MST)
> > From: "der.hans" <>
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: diffing special chars
> > Reply-To:
> >
> > Am 25. Aug, 2000 schwäzte so:
> >
> > >
> > > \_ For now I'm using perl on the file after it was created. Already
> had
> > to do
> > > \_ that for something else, so it's not a great sin, just something
> else
> > to
> > > \_ try to move back to shell later on :).
> > >
> > > You make it sound so hard:
> > >
> > > lartmebofh% perl foo.pl
> > > <...>
> > > lartmebofh% cat > foo.sh
> > > #!/bin/sh
> > >
> > > perl foo.pl
> > > ^D
> > > lartmebofh% chmod +x foo.sh
> > > lartmebofh% foo.sh
> > > <...>
> > > lartmebofh%
> > >
> > > simple as pie.
> >
> > Not for the newbie trying to understand what's going on, which is the
> > point of the exercise :).
> >
> > ciao,
> >
> > der.hans
> > --
> > # home.pages.de/~lufthans/ www.Opnix.com
> > # Knowledge is useless unless it's shared. - der.hans
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 10
> > Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 17:30:31 -0700 (MST)
> > From: "der.hans" <>
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: diffing special chars
> > Reply-To:
> >
> > Am 25. Aug, 2000 schwäzte Kevin Buettner so:
> >
> > > I used to do a lot of shell programming. I don't anymore. If I find
> > > myself writing a shell script that ends up being longer than six lines
> > > (or so), I switch to Perl.
> >
> > I'm moving that direction. I'll admit, however, that I make a lot of
> > system calls in my nukeandpuke perl scripts :).
> >
> > > I'm puzzled by this statement. In the script I sent, you ended up
> > > with the names of all of the files in a single (array) variable so
> > > they could be sorted later on. The actual contents of the files were
> > > never actually read. Surely you don't mean that your filename data is
> > > 60+MB, do you?
> >
> > Yup. I'm not talking about the contents of the files, but I like David's
> > compression mechanism. I'll have to ask him more about it ;-). I'm doing
> a
> > listing of everything on the system, which then goes for backups. Most
> > people (and myself most of the time) won't have this much, but right now
> I
> > do :). Ever seen a shell using 150MB of memory? :) It's a great way to
> > kill init...
> >
> > The only reason I mentioned it was file listings instead of just being
> > random, but in the same order, strings is that I'm interested in getting
> > find and tar to list the files the same way.
> >
> > Oh, and yes, I know this ain't the best way to do this computer-wise,
> but
> > I'm trying to get something simple that beginners can sink they're teeth
> > into.
> >
> > > Regardless, you really do need to do the sort, because you can't rely
> > > on find (or Perl's File::Find) to list the files in any particular
> > > order. If you want to diff two lists of files to see what's been
> >
> > Actually, I do fine. Things get written in the original order, then read
> > back in the order they were written, so I'm fine.
> >
> > > added or deleted, you'll need to do some ordering on the list. You
> >
> > The goal is for the lists to be the same. Once I have the failover
> working
> > I'll see if a checksum works right when they do match, but the failover
> > has to work and I have to get everything written in the same format.
> >
> > > don't need to sort in perl though. You could just use the sort
> program,
> > > but AFAIK, the data will still end up in memory.
> >
> > Yup.
> >
> > BTW, this went to discuss instead of devel because I thought it more of
> a
> > "how to config tar and find to work the same" rather than a devel
> > question. Guess I was wrong :).
> >
> > ciao,
> >
> > der.hans
> > --
> > # home.pages.de/~lufthans/ www.Opnix.com
> > # The only way for a woman to change a man
> > # is if he's wearing Depends[TM] - der.hans
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 11
> > From: "Dennis Sacks" <>
> > To: <>
> > Subject: JLF = Kibo ?
> > Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 09:28:21 -0700
> > charset="iso-8859-1"
> > Reply-To:
> >
> >
> >
> > > Hehe...gotta be careful where you say you're kiboizing. :-)
> > >
> >
> > Sadly, how many people on the Internet these days even know who Kibo is?
> >
> > Dennis Sacks
> >
> > Managed Services Geek, OpNIX, Inc. www.opnix.com
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 12
> > Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 22:28:19 -0700
> > To:
> > From: Alan Dayley <>
> > Subject: Re: JLF = Kibo ?
> > <>
> > <>
> > <>
> > <>
> > Reply-To:
> >
> > I admit to being on the internet for at least 7 years and still not
> > knowing
> > who Kibo is. Enlighten me please.
> >
> > Alan, Computer Knowledgeable Linux Newbie
> >
> > At 09:28 AM 8/25/00 -0700, you wrote:
> >
> >
> > > > Hehe...gotta be careful where you say you're kiboizing. :-)
> > > >
> > >
> > >Sadly, how many people on the Internet these days even know who Kibo
> is?
> > >
> > >Dennis Sacks
> > >
> > >Managed Services Geek, OpNIX, Inc. www.opnix.com
> > >
> > >
> > >________________________________________________
> > >See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail doesn't
>
> > >post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail.
> > >
> > >Plug-discuss mailing list -
> > >http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 13
> > From: "Michael Sheldon" <>
> > To: <>
> > Subject: RE: JLF = Kibo ?
> > Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 23:11:09 -0700
> > charset="iso-8859-1"
> > Reply-To:
> >
> > Kibo was the god of grep.
> >
> > He had a routine that would search the newsgroups, *ALL* of the
> > newsgroups,
> > for any mention of his name, to which you would get a reply.
> >
> > I got my first shell account about 8-9 years ago, and he was net.legend
> > then.
> >
> > Michael J. Sheldon
> > http://www.desertraven.com/
> > Make a fast friend, adopt a greyhound!
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> > [mailto:plug-discuss-admin@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us]On Behalf Of Alan
> > Dayley
> > Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 22:28
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: JLF = Kibo ?
> >
> >
> > I admit to being on the internet for at least 7 years and still not
> > knowing
> > who Kibo is. Enlighten me please.
> >
> > Alan, Computer Knowledgeable Linux Newbie
> >
> > At 09:28 AM 8/25/00 -0700, you wrote:
> >
> >
> > > > Hehe...gotta be careful where you say you're kiboizing. :-)
> > > >
> > >
> > >Sadly, how many people on the Internet these days even know who Kibo
> is?
> > >
> > >Dennis Sacks
> > >
> > >Managed Services Geek, OpNIX, Inc. www.opnix.com
> > >
> > >
> > >________________________________________________
> > >See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail doesn't
> > >post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail.
> > >
> > >Plug-discuss mailing list -
> > >http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> >
> >
> > ________________________________________________
> > See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail doesn't
> > post
> > to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail.
> >
> > Plug-discuss mailing list -
> > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 14
> > From: Lucas Vogel <>
> > To: "''"
> > <>
> > Subject: RE: diffing special chars
> > Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 00:06:14 -0700
> > charset="iso-8859-15"
> > Reply-To:
> >
> > I bet there is a python function somewhere waiting for you to stumble on
> > it!
> > :) I spend about a half a day today trying to figure out how to use
> python
> > for a really dinky little script, but I really came away very impressed
> > with
> > the sheer power of the language. I am a fan, and I will double my
> efforts
> > to
> > use it wherever possible in my Win32 environment at work, and definitely
> > at
> > home in my 100% Linux environment.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: der.hans [mailto:PLUGd@lufthans.com]
> > Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 5:31 PM
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: diffing special chars
> >
> >
> > Am 25. Aug, 2000 schwäzte Kevin Buettner so:
> >
> > > I used to do a lot of shell programming. I don't anymore. If I find
> > > myself writing a shell script that ends up being longer than six lines
> > > (or so), I switch to Perl.
> >
> > I'm moving that direction. I'll admit, however, that I make a lot of
> > system calls in my nukeandpuke perl scripts :).
> >
> > > I'm puzzled by this statement. In the script I sent, you ended up
> > > with the names of all of the files in a single (array) variable so
> > > they could be sorted later on. The actual contents of the files were
> > > never actually read. Surely you don't mean that your filename data is
> > > 60+MB, do you?
> >
> > Yup. I'm not talking about the contents of the files, but I like David's
> > compression mechanism. I'll have to ask him more about it ;-). I'm doing
> a
> > listing of everything on the system, which then goes for backups. Most
> > people (and myself most of the time) won't have this much, but right now
> I
> > do :). Ever seen a shell using 150MB of memory? :) It's a great way to
> > kill init...
> >
> > The only reason I mentioned it was file listings instead of just being
> > random, but in the same order, strings is that I'm interested in getting
> > find and tar to list the files the same way.
> >
> > Oh, and yes, I know this ain't the best way to do this computer-wise,
> but
> > I'm trying to get something simple that beginners can sink they're teeth
> > into.
> >
> > > Regardless, you really do need to do the sort, because you can't rely
> > > on find (or Perl's File::Find) to list the files in any particular
> > > order. If you want to diff two lists of files to see what's been
> >
> > Actually, I do fine. Things get written in the original order, then read
> > back in the order they were written, so I'm fine.
> >
> > > added or deleted, you'll need to do some ordering on the list. You
> >
> > The goal is for the lists to be the same. Once I have the failover
> working
> > I'll see if a checksum works right when they do match, but the failover
> > has to work and I have to get everything written in the same format.
> >
> > > don't need to sort in perl though. You could just use the sort
> program,
> > > but AFAIK, the data will still end up in memory.
> >
> > Yup.
> >
> > BTW, this went to discuss instead of devel because I thought it more of
> a
> > "how to config tar and find to work the same" rather than a devel
> > question. Guess I was wrong :).
> >
> > ciao,
> >
> > der.hans
> > --
> > # home.pages.de/~lufthans/ www.Opnix.com
> > # The only way for a woman to change a man
> > # is if he's wearing Depends[TM] - der.hans
> >
> >
> > ________________________________________________
> > See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail doesn't
> > post
> > to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail.
> >
> > Plug-discuss mailing list -
> > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 15
> > From: Lucas Vogel <>
> > To: "PLUG (E-mail)" <>
> > Subject: The Linux Drivers Petition
> > Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 00:27:58 -0700
> > charset="iso-8859-1"
> > Reply-To:
> >
> > Has everyone signed this yet?
> >
> > http://www.libralinux.com/petition.english.html
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------
> > Lucas Vogel, Software Developer
> > Exponent Failure Analysis Associates, Inc.
> >
> > (623)587-6739
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 16
> > Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 05:10:16 -0700
> > From: Hawke <>
> > To: plug-discuss <>
> > Subject: New business startup help/suggestions/info needed
> > Reply-To:
> >
> > Guys,
> > I've been putting this thing off long enough.
> >
> > I now need some help.
> >
> > I'd like to start a business that involves the use of computers
> > in a small location that serves the public (A cybercafe').
> >
> > I would appreciate any additional input here 9especially from
> > those who are either owners or major contributing partners
> > in their respective organizations).
> >
> > I am also in need of funding sources (if you guys know of any
> > where grants may be issued, etc, please let me know)
> > 
> > I am looking at 2 alternatives so far as the hardware is concerned:
> > 1. 25 workstations (diskless)
> >     specifications (workstations):
> >         memory: 256 megabytes
> >         video; 8 megabytes or more
> >         embedded linux os for loading Xwindows (or windows if need be)
> >             on an ethernet backbone to a main server (100baseT).
> >         Large monitors (17 inch or greater)
> >         CPU: athelon 550 Mhz or higher
> >         (on some machines I will include "special access technology"
> >             for the visually impaired)

> > 
> > Alternative 2:
> >     25 workstations (permanently mounted laptops)
> >         built in HDD's (restricted access)
> >         100BaseT ethernet with embedded linux OS
> >         CPU: Athelon 550 Mhz or higher

> > 
> > Server:
> >     CPU:Athelon 700 Mhz or greater
> >     Memory: 512 megabytes or greater
> >     HDD: Multiple 30 gigbye drives/RAID/SCSI
> >     Standard vid adaptor (this is also the admin station)
> >     OS: linux/BSD/SCO Unix/SUN Solaris/winNT
> >        (any of these, but prefer *nix)
> >     2 Ethernet adaptors (100BaseT or fiber interface)

> > 
> > other equipment: 50 way switch (100BaseT)
> >                           Routing panel
> >                           card reader

> >
> > It has been suggested to me that I issue cards of prepaid time
> > (such as 30 minute, 60 minute, up to 1000 minutes) for various prices.
> > The cost is computed on a per-minute basis and the larger cards
> > would reflect a discount).
> >
> > As always, location is important. since there are already 3 such
> > places around ASU, I plan to look elsewhere (such as central
> > Phoenix, downtown Phoenix, Downtown glendale and north glendale)
> >
> > I am looking at possible bidquotes for both alternatives listed above
> > from local providers 9such as technology partners, pc-club, and others).
> >
> > I am also looking at who would offer the best backbone service
> > (or should I go with more than one with an in-house peering
> > arrangement?), such as Cox, AT&T, QWEST, Sprint, MCI.
> >
> > Let me know if I need to add anything to this.
> > I am trying to get this idea going as quickly as possible.
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 17
> > Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 07:40:19 -0700
> > From: "J.L.Francois" <>
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: JLF = Kibo ?
> > Reply-To:
> > Organization: MagusNet, Inc. Design * Develop * Integrate
> > Reply-To:
> >
> > It seems like on Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 10:28:19PM -0700, Alan Dayley
> > scribbled:
> > Orig Msg> I admit to being on the internet for at least 7 years and
> still
> > not knowing
> > Orig Msg> who Kibo is. Enlighten me please.
> > Orig Msg>
> > Orig Msg> Alan, Computer Knowledgeable Linux Newbie
> >
> > Back during the time of The Great Renaming I was still using Fido
> Gateways
> > and got
> > an account on Delphi for text based Internet Access.
> > 
> > Kibo - Net Legend
> >        Before the Great Renaming of Usenet and the arrival of the
> unwashed
> > masses
> >        to the Internet, Kibo would grep the news spool and generate an
> > autoresponse 
> >        to any post that mentioned him.
> >        if you look at the options for (X)Emacs there is a feature
> >        to still Kiboize newsgroups even though it really isn't
> >        feasible to do this anymore.

> >
> > For those of you into the history of the Internet take a look at these:
> > http://www.galactic-guide.com/articles/6U1.html
> > http://www.kibo.com
> >
> >
> > Sniff....those were the days...sniff...
> >
> > JLF Sends...
> >
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > Message: 18
> > From: "Dennis Sacks" <>
> > To: <>
> > Subject: Re: New business startup help/suggestions/info needed
> > Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 20:59:26 -0700
> > charset="iso-8859-1"
> > Reply-To:
> >
> > One concern about cyber cafes - have any of them been successful
> anywhere?
> > I've never been in one that has had many customers. I like the idea of a
> > cyber cafe in theory, but I'm not sure how it can be built into a good
> > business model.
> >
> > > It has been suggested to me that I issue cards of prepaid time
> > > (such as 30 minute, 60 minute, up to 1000 minutes) for various prices.
> > > The cost is computed on a per-minute basis and the larger cards
> > > would reflect a discount).
> >
> > Prepaid cards are good business. You have the customer's money (and can
> > earn interest on it) and the customer has nothing but a piece of plastic
> > that they one day *may* use.
> >
> > > I am also looking at who would offer the best backbone service
> > > (or should I go with more than one with an in-house peering
> > > arrangement?), such as Cox, AT&T, QWEST, Sprint, MCI.
> >
> > The best backbone service will be offered by some company called
> > OpNIX......maybe you've heard of us?
> >
> > Dennis Sacks
> >
> > Managed Services Geek, OpNIX, Inc. www.opnix.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -- __--__--
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Plug-discuss mailing list -
> > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> >
> >
> > End of Plug-discuss Digest
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> _______________________________________________
> Plug-discuss mailing list -
> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
>
> End of Plug-discuss Digest



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