Need to outsource programming or hire full-time
Scottsdale Arizona Web Design
plug at scottsdalearizonawebdesign.com
Tue Aug 28 09:50:49 MST 2007
Joshua,
Do you really want me to post my experience with you? This is exactly
what I didn't want to happen with this thread. I am not a man that
likes to publicly bash another person. I have more integrity than
that. But you have directly attacked my character and I feel I need to
defend myself. Here is the truth on the matter:
About a year ago, I was overworked and overstressed so I decided to get
a full-time job and run my business on the side. I posted an ad on
craigslist asking for a freelance per-project programmer. Joshua
responded and was chosen by me personally because of his list of
qualifications and his hourly rate (it was either $25 or $35/hr).
Joshua kindly agreed to take any incoming sales calls and would be
awarded a percentage of any projects landed. His first real call was
from a business man in phoenix that had a large project for us. We went
to meet with him on June 29th 2006 in Phoenix. He asked what our rates
are and we told him our rate was $85/hr. He said he couldn't go over
$50/hr and so we agreed to it.
After describing the project, Joshua blurted out, "oh, we could do this
for less than $5000". I was not happy about that because it was not his
place to give the client quotes, especially since I, the owner, was in
the meeting. He blurted that quote without asking me what the graphic
design costs would be or what the Flash development costs would be. The
client then proceeded to take out his calculator and stated, "well, I
had budgeted for about 500 hours of development time." This means he
had budget about $25000 for this project.
We agreed to do the project for about $5000 and the client gave us four
months to do it. The client gave us a down payment and I gave Joshua
his portion of it. I routinely checked in with Joshua to see where he
was on the project and he always had an answer about what he had
completed. On August 17, I asked Joshua for his hours because we needed
to send another invoice. He gave me gave me only 8 hours. I was
surprised because he had given me updates that would seem he spent more
time than that. I asked him why he had so few hours in and he told me
not to worry because, truthfully, he could knock it out in one weekend.
Well, after three and a half months and 2 weeks to deadline, Joshua
admits that he hasn't even started developing the project and that he
needs more time because he was working on other projects (for other
clients). Basically, he had been misleading me for almost 4 months
about the project.
I called the client and the client was very understanding. He gave us
an extra two weeks to get the project done. Joshua now had 4 weeks to
get it done and said it wouldn't be a problem.
As a side note, during this time he also was working with another client
that had called in for another small project that he got a downpayment
for. He had two projects that he was supposed to be working on. Also,
during the entire time he was working with me he would complain about
society, the economy, the future of american business and how all web
design firms would implode in the US because everything is going to
India. He was very "dooms day", the glass is half empty and I talked
with him several times about being more positive. He would also
constantly tell me that I needed to hire him full-time on salary and
that he wanted to move back to New York because he wasn't happy here.
Instead of talking about projects when we were on the phone, I would
turn into his listening ear.
So two more weeks go by and I call Joshua for an update. He then tells
me that he is too busy to do the project. He tells me this after 4
months to get this project done that he, supposedly, could "knock out in
one weekend". I then find out that he hasn't been working on the other
project either! All the updates he was giving me were just to buy him
more time. He wasn't being truthful with me.
Basically, his message to me was that I would have to hire him full-time
and on salary if I wanted him to work for me. I severed all ties with
him and had to go to my indian team to complete the project and they did
it in 3 weeks. I was very, very disappointed in Joshua and was
surprised that anyone would do this to another person.
"Although many view job postings as positive in all respects, the
regular abuse of a list for dubious employment opportunities is a good
way to scare away all serious developers. "
How was my job posting to you dubious? You knew that it was on a
per-project basis. Where did I mislead you? I was always completely
honest with you but you wanted something else...something I did NOT post
for. Joshua...please tell me when or where I was ever dishonest or
misleading with you in any regard. Please share with us where there was
any fault on my end. You and I both know the truth and that I never
lied about anything. Not once did I ever tell you I was going to hire
you full-time. Not once did I not pay an invoice you sent me.
"In general though I am beginning to grow rather tired of running into
these 1 man shows posing as multi-national corporations who think
developers are some kind of cheap disposable commodity. "
I was a one-man show that had designers in Romania and Sweden. My
programmers were in India and I wanted someone that I could work with
face-to-face. That is why I wanted a local programmer. There is
nothing wrong with having development and design done outside the US if
you're a startup. It is an interesting fact that I have many web
designers outside the U.S. that do work for some of the top firms in the
country. Everyone outsources. When I first moved to Phoenix, a local
web design firm offered me a job. I visited their offices in north
phoenix and found that ALL aspects of their company were developed in
India. This includes graphic design!
My company has changed dramatically changed since last year. Obviously
I don't work for anyone else anymore. We have moved into a very nice
office building and I now have a full-time business manager/project
manager that has worked in several executive postiions at companies such
as deloite and touche, Intel, American Express. If you call our office,
either my business manager or the receptionist will answer the phone. I
am also here in the office if anyone would like to speak with me.
"Clearly, by the legacy of job posts that I pointed out, I am not the
first or last person Jason has had a 'bad experience' with."
It's not about bad experiences. As programmers, I would assume you have
all at least once or twice not answered the phone when one of your
clients calls for one reason or another. Our programmer in Idaho has a
wife with serious health issues. They are constantly at the hospital
for days at a time and does not let us know until after they return.
This is understandable, but we cannot run our business this way. The
other programmer in Texas just does our e-commerce and CMS projects. He
has been with me for years but does not develop from the ground up. He
just uses open source packages and alters them.
We are looking for developers that can code from scratch. We are not
looking to replace the Texas programmer. WE WANT LOCAL PROGRAMMERS.
I have no issues with allowing those who come in for interviews to
contact the these two programmers and ask them any questions you want.
You will find that they have gotten paid for every hour worked and that
we keep them pretty busy.
Please go back and look at the job description. I was 100% clear what
the roles would be. The first is on a per-project basis and the 2nd is
a guaranteed 40-50 hours a week. The first position is for freelancers
that can work from home or at their own office. The second position
requires that you work in our offices.
These are LEGITIMATE working positions. Please only respond to this
thread if you enjoy what you do and would like to get paid well doing
it. Joshua, I feel, has turned many of you away from something that is
a great opportunity and that pays very well. Don't write us off until
you meet with us and find out for yourself.
Joshua Zeidner wrote:
> Alan,
>
> Obviously, I have had some unsatisfactory business Jason in the
> past. Of course, I don't want to deter anyone from posting job ads,
> or even working with Jason. If Jason wants to do business, I do think
> it is his responsibility to do so in an upfront way. Although many
> view job postings as positive in all respects, the regular abuse of a
> list for dubious employment opportunities is a good way to scare away
> all serious developers. The 'craigslist effect' happens when readers
> have no way of distinguishing BS artists from sincere requests. An
> interesting feature of craigslist is that there is no easy way to post
> back a response, and this has a way of fostering false information.
> what kind of job market do we want here? A place for people to do
> business... or a sleazy pick up joint?
>
> In general though I am beginning to grow rather tired of running
> into these 1 man shows posing as multi-national corporations who think
> developers are some kind of cheap disposable commodity. They seem to
> be some kind of vestige of the dot com boom. Clearly, by the legacy
> of job posts that I pointed out, I am not the first or last person
> Jason has had a 'bad experience' with. Its unfortunate that this
> situation had to turn into a confrontation, but all I did ask was that
> he provide his actual identity, and I don't think thats asking a lot.
> And finally, I am not doing this out of some personal vendetta, but
> rather as a service to others like me who deserve to be warned of
> potentially costly and problematic situations.
>
> Any serious employer would post here despite the risk of someone
> like me posing questions in front of the group.
>
> Thanks Alan, I will respect your request not to develop this thread
> any further. I hope you understand that my intentions here are based
> in neither spite or malice. If we all want a functional place to
> communicate and do business, it takes work and input.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Josh Zeidner
>
>
>
>
> On 8/27/07, *Alan Dayley* <alandd at consultpros.com
> <mailto:alandd at consultpros.com> > wrote:
>
> Joshua Zeidner wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 8/27/07, *Scottsdale Arizona Web Design* <
> > plug at scottsdalearizonawebdesign.com
> <mailto:plug at scottsdalearizonawebdesign.com>
> > <mailto:plug at scottsdalearizonawebdesign.com
> <mailto:plug at scottsdalearizonawebdesign.com>>> wrote:
> >
> > Jason Ho-Ching
> > Owner of several companies and sites including:
> > echazen.com <http://echazen.com> <http://echazen.com>
> > scottsdale arizona web design
> > zencart masters
> > askamormon.com <http://askamormon.com> <http://askamormon.com>
> > wearesamoa.com <http://wearesamoa.com> < http://wearesamoa.com>
> > 480.355.1434
> >
> > For the record, I used to post on the utah plug list at
> www.plug.org <http://www.plug.org>
> > < http://www.plug.org>. Every post there is highly visible
> on the
> > search engines. Google my name and you'll see a plug post
> on the
> > first page. I have had job postings there get put on google
> that
> > discussed projects and what I am paying to my
> programmers. This is
> > the type of information I don't want my clients to see. We
> bill our
> > clients at $85/hr and I don't want clients to see that we
> pay some
> > programmers only $40/hr and what not.
> >
> > This is why I didn't want all my personal info to be posted here
> > because I assumed it would be as public as the plug.org
> <http://plug.org>
> > <http://plug.org> postings from utah.
> >
> > I hope this clears up any confusion. I have posted my name and
> > number at the top. I might as well tell you what we're
> offering to
> > pay, too, since everything is now on the table. We are
> looking to
> > pay between $40/hr and $75/hr. Software engineers will make
> closer
> > to $75/hr. These are top-level developers only. The owner
> of the
> > company in utah will be interviewing the candidates to
> filter out
> > the more inexperienced developers. I have already had a
> very, very,
> > very bad experience with a programmer on this board.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Who would that be?
>
> In the context of a discussion on the PLUG email list, this
> question is
> not appropriate. If you really want to know, talk with Jason
> off-list.
>
> IMO, this thread has gone a direction that is helpful neither to the
> group nor to the originator. Job postings to the list should be brief
> and to the point, providing an off-list contact. The original posting
> provided this, identifying the source of the posting as "Scottsdale
> Arizona Web Design". The rest of the information posted in the
> thread,
> while all public, was not needed in the email list.
>
> My opinion and suggestion is to not take this thread any
> further. Let's
> encourage employers to post jobs, not drag them down in side
> discussions. Interested parties can learn further details on
> their own
> or in other more appropriate channels.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
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>
>
>
> --
> .0000. communication.
> .0001. development.
> .0010. strategy.
> .0100. appeal.
>
> JOSHUA M. ZEIDNER
> IT Consultant
>
> ( 602 ) 490 8006
> jjzeidner at gmail.com <mailto:jjzeidner at gmail.com>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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