https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs

Wed Jul 28 07:48:02 MST 2021

 The irony is the United States and the West in general was suppose to be against tyranny and centrally planned economies and governments.  At least that is what I was told growing up.  U.S.S.R. and Russia bad.  America good.  We have now become what the Soviet Union was.  Tyrannical and oppressive.  Free Speech?  Only for me and not for thee.  
Rule by oligarchs.  30 years of war.  Mass immigration without assimilation.  That is what destroyed ancient Greece and will eventually destroy us.  
    On Wednesday, July 28, 2021, 10:16:07 AM EDT, Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss <plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:  

 #yiv6269276118 p.yiv6269276118MsoNormal, #yiv6269276118 p.yiv6269276118MsoNoSpacing{margin:0;}While I don't necessarily agree with the law, I think it may be blown out of proportion. What it's actually restricting is the quiescent current (the amount of power a circuit/device uses when effectively turned off) of a device, not the full-load power, and the allowable amount actually increases as more powerful components are added.

Jays Two Cents explains it pretty effectively: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5fc5ZX6Kzk
On Wed, Jul 28, 2021, at 3:01 AM, Matthew Gibson via PLUG-discuss wrote:

gregzegan via PLUG-discuss said on Tue, 27 Jul 2021 14:16:27+0000
 (UTC)

 >https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
 >

 Allowme to change the headline of this article to...

 "SixStates Responsible Enough to Limit Computer PowerConsumption"

 Anyoneprioritizing their video game performance over the starvation,
 waterwars, crop failures, climate refugees, underwater cities,deserts
 replacingfarmland, and normalization of cat 5 hurricanes that will
 surelycome if we don't handle this situation correctly, is anethical
 cripple.

 Andanyone, who just has to have that superburner computer, of an age
 notlikely to live until 2060 is just borrowing on a future theyknow
 theywon't repay.

 Andit's not like you can't wait 4 years and have a computer usinga
 couplehundred wats that performs like today's 1000 wattgargantuan.

 SteveT

 SteveLitt
 Spring2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of theSuccessful
 Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques

mmmmmm No, I reject your attempt atgas-lighting the discussion away from liberty infringing regulations.I reject your blithe attempt to validate power hungry governmentattempts to slowly curtail the freedoms of Americans.

All of those crises can and will be addressedby private industry and not by some pencil pushing bureaucraticcubicle rat. The Federal Government (one could also include stategovernments) will never ever be able to address problems faster thanprivate industry will be able to. Look into FEMA’s response tohurricane Katrina back in the late 2000’s as a prime example. Lookinto that same organizations response to Puerto Rico and their recentnatural disaster.

The climate changes. Humans need to adapt. Tothink that we can hold back change of this magnitude is hubris. Weneed to take better care of our things. Yes. But we also need to takecare of ourselves while we do that. You think a family in India, orAfrica is going to give a hoot about a 2 degree C increase in globaltemperatures over the next 100 years? I suggest you rethink thatmethodology if you do. Those families are only concerned about wheretheir next meal will come from.

Anyone who wants a superburner computer and hasthe capital to spend on it should be able to purchase it, and thenalso worry about how they will power it. It is unethical to restrictanother human’s right to their pursuit of happiness so long as thatpursuit doesn’t directly infringe on another’s right to life,liberty, and their own pursuit of happiness.

I think it’s an amazing thing that technologymakes such marvelous advances in such a short time. Not a reason tolimit someone else’s liberty at this date.

AaronJones via PLUG-discuss said on Tue, 27 Jul 2021 15:04:58-0700

 >Those are some dangerous statements.

 Dangerousstatements? What, are my statements going to insurance rates
 goingup?

 https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/environment/a27180829/global-warming-is-already-costing-the-insurance-industry-historic-amounts/

Insurance rates? Why is that even being broughtup? It’s a problem for the insurer and the insuree to discuss. Ifthe insurer doesn’t like the risk of insuring someone’s hairbrained idea to build on the coast as the coast recedes….. soundslike a problem for the person with the hair brained idea to buildwhere climate change is going to destroy their hair brained idea.Only dangerous to that person…

Perhapsmy statements could cause an increase in annualhurricane
 energy:

 https://weather.com/storms/hurricane/news/2020-11-18-top-10-most-extreme-hurricane-seasons-2020

 Oh,I know. My statements are dangerous because they caused 20 yearsof
 droughtto the farmers in WesternColorado:

 https://www.cpr.org/2021/07/23/western-slope-drought-cattle-ranching/

Itmust be nice to be able to wave your hand and claim adverse weatheras proof to support your theories of what is dangerous. Here’s atheory you can prove: living is dangerous and fraught with risk atall points of life. 

 Iwasn't discussing China, but since you brought it up: Why inthe
 WORLDshould China go through the inconvenience of reducingcarbon
 emissionsand all forms of pollution if the US doesn't reduce energy
 useeverywhere it can: Cars, airplanes, trucks, busses, lightbulbs,and
 yes,computers?

Why should China reduce their carbon footprint?Maybe because they are the worst offender of greenhouse gasemissions? Maybe because Their reduction of emissions will actuallydo more for your cause than severely hampering America’s economywill? How many days did they need to shut down their industry leadingup to the 2008 Olympics for clear skies?

Listof countries by greenhouse gas emissions - Wikipedia

if you don’t like Wikipedia, maybe this site? GreenhouseGas Emissions By Country 2021 (worldpopulationreview.com)

of course, you shouldprobably take most of these reports with a grain of salt. Who knowsif they are valid and genuine? Shrug

NowI'll admit that those Dell Alienware computers, which fromtheir
 componentssound like they're about 500 watts at full use, don'tsound
 excessive.And 20mpg highway didn't sound excessive in 2000 either, but
 nowit does, because these laws and regulations forced car
 manufacturersto increase their gas efficiency, and now breathing in LA
 isa lot easier, and we're not as close to the tipping point aswe
 otherwisewould have been.

 > But if you are war
 >hawkinghere and trying to bait us into a pollution debate so you can
 >geteveryone to do the whole “war with China thing…” then you gotmy
 >reply and I admit I got baited.

 Whoaaa, warwith China? Huh? Where'd THAT come from?

War with China… came from a placemore realistic than pointing to increased Hurricane seasons andRainfall in Colorado… The only way China is going to curtail theireconomic development is by direct global action in the form ofmilitary might.

Meanwhile,I'd be interested in hearing your age. I'm 71, so I don't
 havea dog in this fight: I'll be safely in my grave before this thing
 ismore than an expense (hurricane insurance and repairs, higherfood
 prices)and an annoyance, but my kids will be around long enough that,
 ifwe play this wrong, they'll be impacted by climate refugees,water
 wars,famine-causing drought, the whole bag of horrors. That's why I
 don'tget indignant when they tell me how much power to use.

Ooooo look! An appeal toexperience. Aside from an attempt to browbeat us youngwhipper-snappers into silence… Why is your age even a discussionpoint?

EricOyen via PLUG-discuss said on Tue, 27 Jul 2021 21:22:33 -0700

 >Itis also interesting that those very same states that push EV’salso
 >have not upgraded their power systems in quite sometime. California
 >is the leader on this list of shame withrolling blackouts and
 >brownouts each summer.

 Ithink this is unfair to California. Much of California is thehottest
 inthe US. Greenhouse gasses are created by everyone, but California
 canleast afford to gain a degree. California is also the most
 populousstate in the nation. So in spite of EV's and all their other
 movesto limit environmental damage, they can't reduce the heatthat
 radiatesor blows into California, so they can't keep all their
 citizens'houses below 85 Fahrenheit. Hence the rolling blackouts.

No.Not unfair to California, their power grid is their responsibility tomaintain. If they fail to plan for the future and prepare for dryseasons and update their infrastructure, their rolling brownouts areon them. No where else has had this problem even though California isnot the only one affected by increased temperatures. California needsto take better care of their things. Plain and simple.

 >They also want to put up more windmills, off
 >shore! Talkabout throwing good money after bad and causing those of
 >uswith computers that are capable of running linux no end oftrouble.

 I'm not sure how windmills cause havoc withLinux. I thought that was
 doneby Microsoft.

 Californiacould sure use more fission reactors, but in a place where
 7+earthquakes are frequent, doing so is just too likely tocause
 anotherChernobyl. Plus, anything near the coast is likely to go
 Fukushimawith a tsunami. They don't have a river capable of generating
 hugepower from its current. They can't import from surroundingstates,
 andback in the day, when they imported from Texas, the Texanpower
 companiesstiffed California's power grid in order to make abigger
 profit.

 So,other than solar, wind and conservation, I don't see whatother
 optionsCalifornia has.

First.Chernobyl cannot happen in the West because we never built RBMKreactors with a positive void co-efficient. We place reactorsinside containment vessels to help curtail fallout in the event of adisaster. Attempt to invoke Chernobyl disaster as anti-nuclearargument denied. Fukushima is more relevant because of California’srelative location and geographical environment. That said. Nuclearplants have only continued to become safer and more efficient. Saferand more efficient than coal, gas, and maybe even “renewablesources” Nuclear should be more seriously discussed as a viablealternative power source.

Itleaves us with 60 million people who can't game quite as hard.Boo
 hoohoo.

Itleaves us with our liberty just slightly more chipped away at. Itleaves us with a government emboldened to infringe on rights just ever so more. 

 What'sthis fascination with China that you all have? China uses the
 energyequivalent of 27,018 million barrels of oil for 1394 million
 people,equalling 19.4 barrels per person. The US uses the equivalentof
 18,684million barrels and has 328 million people, equaling 56.9
 barrelsper person.

Seeabove discussion on China’s CO2 production. Oil is only a part ofthat carbon footprint. Go do more research.

Sohere's the question: If some country using almost triple theenergy
 perperson than your country says *you* are the problem and shouldcut,
 andthey won't do squat until you cut, what would you say to them?

Questioninvalid. Communist Dictatorships don’t give a hoot what outsiderssay. Unless that speech is in the form of military might bearing downon said dictatorship. 

 Youask where it leaves us. Hey, if you're 60 years old, it leavesyou
 havinglived a pretty fun life. If you're 20 years old, it leaves you
 witha very hard (and probably considerably foreshortened) second half
 ofyour life. If you were just born today, by the time yougraduate
 college,the world will be rife with climate refugees and water wars,
 andby the time you're 50, if you last that long, the population
 declinewill be brutal and pretty universal except for the very rich.
 Allbecause everybody in 2021 said the other guy should cut his
 emissionsfirst.

Life is hard.Always will be. There will always be something new to be a risk.

Onemore thing: Some friends of mine ran the numbers and accordingto
 themthe California computer energy standards aren't as strict as those
 ofthe EU.

 Ifeel not a bit of sorrow for the 60 million potential gamers whoplay
 ata slight disadvantage, if they play at all. I feel sorry fortheir
 grandchildren.

Your feigned sympathy just undermines your attempts at argument for your cause of infringing on liberty. 

Final Analysis, You must hate the freedom Linux provides to its users and the liberty with which we may embark upon through its use.

Olive Branch: If you would like to meet up at a park where we can social distance and have a veggie burger while I grill up some brats, I'd be willing to bring the makings for a BBQ and we can discuss these details in a more civil manner than Keyboard Warriors. 

Matt

On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 1:13 AM Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss <plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss said on Tue, 27 Jul 2021 22:53:09 -0700

 >So, guys, nice little debate we all got snagged into here because of
 >some state regulations that would prevent nearly 60 million people
 >from owning technologies that would make their lives more convenient.
 >Regulations put in place by politicians who know nothing of real
 >science and are trying to kiss up to china. Now, where does that leave
 >us?

 It leaves us with 60 million people who can't game quite as hard. Boo
 hoo hoo. 

 What's this fascination with China that you all have? China uses the
 energy equivalent of 27,018 million barrels of oil for 1394 million
 people, equalling 19.4 barrels per person. The US uses the equivalent of
 18,684 million barrels and has 328 million people, equaling 56.9
 barrels per person.

 So here's the question: If some country using almost triple the energy
 per person than your country says *you* are the problem and should cut,
 and they won't do squat until you cut, what would you say to them? 

 You ask where it leaves us. Hey, if you're 60 years old, it leaves you
 having lived a pretty fun life. If you're 20 years old, it leaves you
 with a very hard (and probably considerably foreshortened) second half
 of your life. If you were just born today, by the time you graduate
 college, the world will be rife with climate refugees and water wars,
 and by the time you're 50, if you last that long, the population
 decline will be brutal and pretty universal except for the very rich.
 All because everybody in 2021 said the other guy should cut his
 emissions first.

 One more thing: Some friends of mine ran the numbers and according to
 them the California computer energy standards aren't as strict as those
 of the EU.

 I feel not a bit of sorrow for the 60 million potential gamers who play
 at a slight disadvantage, if they play at all. I feel sorry for their
 grandchildren.

 SteveT

 Steve Litt 
 Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
 Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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