Where did the degree requirement come from for programmers?

[Phillip Waclawski]

As an interesting example on the other side, was some of the weird experience requirements when I was looking for a job in mid 90s. I was interviewing for a job and when they said they only wanted senior admins with years of experience, and not a "junior admin"....I asked, "well, do you EVER hire junior admins". NO.....??? So, if no one hires the intermediate level folks, how do they ever get the experience. "Well, we expect them to get that at OTHER companies". And how long have you been trying to fill this position? 
"Over 18 months"....And I had to ask "Don't you think that after 18 months of on the job training, someone like me would be an excellent admin able to follow your companies methods etc etc".....(pauses) "Well, yes, but we only hire senior admins" (facepalm). 

And of course, in 1997 I saw job postings asking for a minimum of 3-5 years Java experience (it came out in 1995). 
The best was about 3 months after Microsoft released all of their .NET stuff, they were expecting 2-3 years experience. ;) 

Phil Waclawski 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Sam Kreimeyer" <skreimey at gmail.com> 
To: "Main PLUG discussion list" <plug-discuss at lists.plug.phoenix.az.us> 
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 8:56:16 AM 
Subject: Re: Where did the degree requirement come from for programmers? 

All the (junior/entry level network or system administrator) IT 
positions I looked at in Arkansas had experience as the mandatory 
requirement of typically no less than three years. Occasionally they 
would allow a combination of degree and experience. It's a good time 
to be an employer. 

On 1/13/12, Brian Weaver <bjweaver at gmail.com> wrote: 
> I know many non-degree system admins at the large, blue in color fortune 500 
> company I work for in Chandler. Most were probably hired when the economy 
> was booming back in the 90s and skilled IT people were in short supply. If 
> they were applying today I suspect they would have a much harder time 
> getting in. 
> 
> It really comes down the the hiring manager. I've seen managers do their 
> initial resume screen by throwing out every resume that does not have a 4 
> year degree, and I've seen cases where we receive only 3 applications and 
> everyone gets interviewed. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Jan 13, 2012, at 8:11 AM, Kevin Fries <kevin at fries-biro.com> wrote: 
> 
>> This requirement comes from the same place as most requirements of this 
>> ilk. Plausable deny-ability. 
>> 
>> - We need a qualified programmer 
>> 
>> - HR does not know (and often neither does the hiring manager, or policy 
>> maker) how to assess programming skills. 
>> 
>> By requiring a degree, you can't fire the people that implemented this 
>> policy... after all, they hired someone qualified, right? Its not their 
>> fault if the programmer doesn't work out. But without a degree... well 
>> then what were you thinking. 
>> 
>> So... its a CYA move by incompetent people, trying to hire for a skill 
>> they don't understand. 
>> 
>> The last company and current company.I work for both hired on skills and 
>> treasure their IT staff. They both understand how hard it is to find good 
>> IT people, and few ever leave. 
>> 
>> I look as the manditory IT degree as a sure sign that this is not a good 
>> company to work for... and I am right more than I'm wrong. 
>> 
>> Just my $0.02 
>> 
>> Kevin 
>> 
>> On Jan 13, 2012 7:56 AM, "keith smith" <klsmith2020 at yahoo.com> wrote: 
>> 
>> 
>> Hi, 
>> 
>> I'm wondering if anyone knows where the degree requirement came from for 
>> developers. 
>> 
>> In the early 80's there were very few computer courses available. I 
>> talked with a guy in about 1988 who told me he was a math major because 
>> that was the closest thing to a computer science degree in the 70's and 
>> early 80's. 
>> 
>> I read that in the early 80's businesses were offering classes in 
>> programming. The example I read said the course was 6 weeks long. The 
>> graduates were give high paying jobs. 
>> 
>> The interesting part is I was attending college in the early 80's. At the 
>> UofA intro to computers was a FORTRAN programming class. Then a class in 
>> COBOL. It was mostly a business degree with an emphasis on programming. 
>> 
>> 
>> I'm curious if anyone knows why corporate America requires a degree to be 
>> a programmer. The degree does not open the door. Skills do. 
>> 
>> Do system administrators need degrees? 
>> 
>> As far as I'm concerned a degree in and of it self means nothing. I've 
>> worked with and know people who do not have a degree that can run circles 
>> around some with degrees. 
>> 
>> Just curious where that requirement came from. 
>> 
>> ------------------------ 
>> Keith Smith 
>> 
>> --------------------------------------------------- 
>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss at lists.plug.phoenix.az.us 
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: 
>> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss 
>> --------------------------------------------------- 
>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss at lists.plug.phoenix.az.us 
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: 
>> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss 
> 
--------------------------------------------------- 
PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss at lists.plug.phoenix.az.us 
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: 
http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/pipermail/plug-discuss/attachments/20120113/f7275f79/attachment.html>