DefCon for kids

Tue Jun 28 21:43:29 MST 2011

Keith,

I have two cousins whom recently finished their tours. One is a heroin
fiend (with a penchant for killing animals), another (coincidentally
an E-5 in the USMC) is thoroughly convinced that aliens from far off
galaxies are reading our thoughts at any given moment. Suffice to say,
their judgement is quite suspect in my mind. Obviously, this is a
small sample of a large population, but it does give me reason to
think that rank alone is not proof positive of sound judgement.

More towards the point of the discussion, though, I think the point is
still valid that presentations at Defcon have a tendency to gloss over
the legal ramifications of using exploits. It would be shame for an
impressionable young person to learn about the consequences of
straying from the narrow paths of our convoluted legal system in a
courtroom. The real shame is that there is such difficulty in fully
exploring such a great learning experience for young and old alike.

On 6/28/11, Lisa Kachold <lisakachold at obnosis.com> wrote:
> I think your understanding was of aufthority, not clear and simple
> consequences?  Of course a few might argue joining the military as opposed
> to some of the other opportunities available might be a perfect example.
>
> But of course this is a subject mired in subjective experience, values
> systems and symantics, possibly therefore "junk science".
>
> I would like to see how many kids end up at DecConforkids?
>
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 8:54 PM, keith smith <klsmith2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I have not been following this thread until now.  I found the statement
>> "The human brain doesn't recognize consequences until age 25?" to be very
>> interesting.
>>
>> I'm a little older. I joined the Marine Corps at 18.  My peers and I
>> understood consequences almost from the first moment of entering boot
>> camp.
>>
>> By 25 most enlisted marines, if they stayed in, would have 7 years in and
>> have made it to the rank of E-5 or E-6.  When I was in some made E-5 -
>> Sergeant within the fist 4 years.  That put them in a position of
>> authority
>> and responsibility, and they were only 21, 22, or 23 years old when they
>> took on that responsibility that required a thorough understanding of
>> consequences.
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------
>> Keith Smith
>>
>> --- On *Tue, 6/28/11, Nathan England <nathan at paysonlinux.org>* wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Nathan England <nathan at paysonlinux.org>
>>
>> Subject: Re: DefCon for kids
>> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" <plug-discuss at lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
>> Date: Tuesday, June 28, 2011, 8:43 PM
>>
>>
>> I am of the opinion that science is not always correct, regardless of how
>> much "study" has been done. Science telling me that the human brain is not
>> capable of making a decision without considering the consequences of the
>> decision, yet all our known life came from some primordial ooze, or all
>> existing matter came about through a one in a billion random chance big
>> bang, only proves to me that science is not always right. More like the
>> science is created to cater to someone's agenda.
>>
>> I specifically remember as a young child considering the consequences of
>> my
>> actions. Of course, I was also "spanked" as a child! oh no! someone call
>> Dr.
>> Spock! I think in reality we are trying to make these punk adolescents
>> feel
>> better by telling them it is not their faults, in order for a baby boomer
>> society to make up for a lack of discipline in their homes while raising
>> their children.
>>
>> just my .02
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 8:13 PM, Eric Cope
>> <eric.cope at gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=eric.cope@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>>
>> There was a book published with the last few years talking about
>> adolescent
>> decision making. Adolescents have different value systems making their
>> decisions look poor from adults point of view, but actually quite
>> rational.
>> It's was titled "the case against adolescence".
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>
>> On Jun 28, 2011, at 7:19 PM, Lisa Kachold
>> <lisakachold at obnosis.com<http://mc/compose?to=lisakachold@obnosis.com>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 6:11 PM, Lee Reynolds
>> <<http://mc/compose?to=Lee.Reynolds@asu.edu>
>> Lee.Reynolds at asu.edu <http://mc/compose?to=Lee.Reynolds@asu.edu>> wrote:
>> > The human brain doesn't recognize consequences until age 25?
>> >
>> > That sounds like a bunch of nonsense to me, the kind of stuff that is
>> used to make excuses for adults acting like overgrown adolescents.
>> Perhaps
>> the issue is not a matter of neurological development, but a matter of
>> parents allowing their grown children to persist in a child-like state
>> until
>> they are almost 30.  I'm only 38 myself, but I do remember the days when
>> growing up meant you grew up.  Maybe you went off to college, maybe you
>> joined the military, maybe you lived with your folks but paid serious rent
>> while attending college close to home.  But whatever you did, you were
>> expected to be an adult, not a child.  Today many people in their early
>> 20's
>> are still living with mom and dad as if high school never ended.  Allowing
>> someone to persist in that kind of a cocoon is a great way to wind up with
>> someone who at first glance does not appear to understand consequences,
>> when
>> in truth they've simply never had to function in life as a normal adult.
>> >
>> > </rant_mode=off>
>>
>>
>> I am not sure if it would be called "junk" but it's neuroscience backed up
>> by long behavioral studies and statistics, as well as imaging.
>>
>>
>> <http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=consequences+brain+age+25&aq=f&aqi=&aql=f&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=1df85bb4ccbea692&biw=900&bih=330>
>> http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=consequences+brain+age+25&aq=f&aqi=&aql=f&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=1df85bb4ccbea692&biw=900&bih=330
>>
>> > Lee Reynolds
>> > Tech Support Analyst Sr
>> > ASU Advanced Computing Center
>> > GWC-178
>> >
>> > 480.965.9460 (Office)
>> > 480.458.7434 (Mobile)
>> >
>> > Have an A2C2 related question or problem?
>> >
>> > Just send an email to the following address detailing
>> > the nature of the question or problem and a service request
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>> >
>> > <http://mc/compose?to=support@hpchelp.asu.edu>support at hpchelp.asu.edu<http://mc/compose?to=support@hpchelp.asu.edu>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From:
>> <http://mc/compose?to=plug-discuss-bounces@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
>> plug-discuss-bounces at lists.plug.phoenix.az.us<http://mc/compose?to=plug-discuss-bounces@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>on
>> behalf of Kevin Brown
>> > Sent: Tue 6/28/2011 5:17 PM
>> > To: Main PLUG discussion list
>> > Subject: Re: DefCon for kids
>> >
>> >>> Sounds like Cathy's daughter is the perfect person for DefCon
>> >>> according
>> to
>> >>> Chris' "Why is DefCon like sudoku?" presentation earlier this month.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> <http://mychildssuitcase.blogspot.com/2011/06/channelling-energy-of-geeky-techy-kids.html>
>> http://mychildssuitcase.blogspot.com/2011/06/channelling-energy-of-geeky-techy-kids.html
>> >>
>> >> There is a good deal of material presented at DefCon that gives
>> >> credence and lip service to breaking laws without consequences.  Youth
>> >> are already at a disadvantage since the human brain does not recognize
>> >> consequences until around 25 years old, while being required to be
>> >> accountable since the age of 18.
>> >
>> > This sounds like junk science. Kids as young as 2 and 3 lie to avoid
>> > getting into trouble which suggests they understand consequences for
>> > their actions.
>> >
>> >> I would carefully counsel your daughters and sons about some of what
>> >> is presented, the current state of government surveillance in America,
>> >> and exactly where and when they have encroached private property and
>> >> consequences.   A good example is the back page of 2600 magazine where
>> >> jail inmates are given free classified space to write desperately for
>> >> penpals from jail for such crimes.
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>> --
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Nathan England
>> I believe in the Constitution and the 4th Amendment. I am innocent and
>> have
>> nothing to hide, but NO agent of the state crosses my threshhold without a
>> valid warrant signed by a judge and properly submitted. If we fail to
>> exercise our rights, we lose them.
>>
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