Killing PLUG softly

[Kurt Granroth]

FWIW, I'm not proposing that PLUG ban off topic posts nor do I think
that engaging in such is a mark of poor social skills.  There is a big
difference between a normal OT post and a toxic discussion where
specific people behave out of line with a community.

Let me give an example outside of this list since any local example will
surely cut too close to home.  There was this guy on a bunch of the KDE
lists that was very active asking questions, answering a few, and
submitting patches.  However, he clearly believed that people were out
to get him.  My guess was that he was skitzophrenic but I have no proof
of that.  In any event, if you rejected his patch or disagreed with him
or even didn't respond fast enough, he would go off the deep end and the
conversation would devolve into name calling and nasty accusations.  He
was given repeated chances to work within the community but he was so
convinced that he was right that he couldn't listen.  So he was banned
from all lists.  And everybody breathed a sigh of relief when that happened.

That type of thing rarely happens in OT threads on this list.  This past
discussion was an exception.  The conversation quickly turned *toxic*,
largely due to a few specific individuals.

What is toxic?  Think of it this way; if it was said in person, it would
like result in somebody getting a fat lip.

Those are the type of discussions and the type of people that are poison
to a community.  It's just very unfortunate that PLUG is having to deal
with it more and more, lately.

On 05/19/2010 08:18 AM, keith smith wrote:
>
> I've been a member of several tech lists for over 10 years.  Each have
> the same discussions about some off topic subject matter.
>
> I tend to believe we are a community.  I belong to a Christian
> community and we talk about other things.  This is a group that meets
> weekly, in person.  We do not just talk about Jesus.  Jesus is our
> focus however we tend to talk about everything.  There are opposing
> parties, to the extreme sometimes.  However for some reason we do not
> try to censor, for the most part, and we still continue to meet.  I
> would say that unlike this group our core values are inline with the
> group at large.
>
> What keeps us here is technology.  Some would say Linux.  Okay maybe
> that is the core.  However I've asked windows questions, programming
> questions, and data questions.  Occasionally there is a question about
> TV's and other very off topic questions.
>
> I think recently I asked about digital camcorders.
>
> For the most part the list is tame and no one gets upset.  That is
> true of the other two lists I belong to.
>
> Is there a lack of social skills that cause us to go off topic?  I
> think not.  We do not live in a vacuum.
>
> I'm not sure we would ever have a sterile list.  One of the lists I
> belong to has meet several times to become organized and each time the
> consensus was the list does not want any rules, period.
>
> I think each of us is attracted to Linux for the same reason.  We are
> a counter culture, at least that was true 10 years ago.
>
> I've enjoyed this list for maybe 10 years.  I appreciate the people on
> this list that have great skills and knowledge and are willing to
> share some of that with me.
>
> I believe this list will survive and if anything will become
> stronger.  Even though I disagree with some of you, politically, I
> admire your skill set and your willingness to help others.
>
> This thread has taken on a life of it's own as well.  I think we, for
> the most part, will see off topic discussions laces with threats to
> leave the list, and resistance to those who want to kill any off topic
> discussion.  I believe that is the nature of the list serve community.
>
> ------------------------
> Keith Smith
>
> --- On *Tue, 5/18/10, Kurt Granroth
> /<kurt+plug-discuss at granroth.com>/* wrote:
>
>
>     From: Kurt Granroth <kurt+plug-discuss at granroth.com>
>     Subject: Re: Killing PLUG softly
>     To: plug-discuss at lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
>     Date: Tuesday, May 18, 2010, 10:16 PM
>
>     Indeed.  I've been a part of countless mailing lists over the
>     years and have always counted plug-discuss as one of the better
>     ones.  There has historically been a much higher than average
>     signal-to-noise ratio.
>
>     All long-running and active lists will eventually run into cases
>     where a few select individuals just don't have the social skills
>     to work within the confines of a mailing list.  The excuse that
>     people used to toss about a few years ago was the supposed higher
>     prevalence of Asperger Syndrome in tech circles.  In the 90s, the
>     excuse was all of the people coming from AOL (and other newbie
>     circles).  Lately, I hear lots of excuses about people growing up
>     using the Internet as a communication platform and just never
>     learned how to deal with other people.
>
>     The end result is the same!  There will be specific people who
>     will "poison" a list (and likely not even know that that's what
>     they are doing).  The only difference is how lists handle this.
>
>     Option 1 is to do nothing.  This does work in a lot of cases
>     since, well, the offending parties often get bored and leave on
>     their own. It's a dangerous tack to take, though, since not doing
>     anything can often also drive away productive members of the
>     community during the stress times.
>
>     Option 2 is to start moderating.  This rarely works.  I mean,
>     it'll work to stop the immediate poisoning... but I've found that
>     most lists go into a death spiral the instant a formerly free list
>     becomes moderated.
>
>     That leaves Option 3 -- banning the ones who just don't get along.
>     That's always a rough choice and one not to be taken likely. 
>     However, in my experience, it usually works pretty well in the
>     end, too.  Really, the only problem with PLUG at this point is
>     that there really isn't a central authority that can definitively
>     make such decisions.
>
>     Of course, while this is hardly a unique situation, it doesn't
>     make it any easier to stomach.  Alas.
>
>     On 5/18/10 9:57 PM, Jim wrote:
>     > Well said, Alan.
>     >
>     > I was there when PLUG reformed and watched it grow into a
>     vibrant part
>     > of the Linux community. While we all have opinions about a myriad of
>     > topics, the binding thread of this part of the Linux community, this
>     > mailing list, is not, never was, and never should be a venue for
>     > extended discussions of non-Linux-related topics.
>     >
>     > When I saw a particular discussion devolve into lies and insulting
>     > name-calling, I was ashamed! Too bad those who perpetuated that
>     > discussion would not or could not act sooner.
>     >
>     > Here, we are all PLUG! If you dont like being part of PLUG, if you
>     > choose to degenerate one of the best parts of PLUG into vile
>     ranting and
>     > baseless accusations, spare the rest of us and take your pettiness
>     > elsewhere.
>     >
>     > ::steppiung off the soap box::
>     >
>     > Alan Dayley wrote:
>     >> I've stayed out of this latest round of off-topic threads. I am
>     happy
>     >> to see vibrant discussion. I am unhappy to see personal attacks and
>     >> other silliness. I'm unhappy to see it go on and on.
>     >>
>     >> This is enough. It's just enough.
>     >>
>     >> I don't go to a email list or forum on topic A to be drown in
>     >> discussions about topic W. That topic W may be important, the
>     points
>     >> and counter-points offered in brilliance and courtesy doesn't
>     matter.
>     >> If the venue is supposed to be about topic A, the majority of the
>     >> conversation should be about topic A. Etiquette and respect for the
>     >> community around the chosen topic dictate that other topics
>     should be
>     >> minimal.
>     >>
>     >> It doesn't matter how strongly you feel about what someone said
>     about
>     >> some off-topic post. Continuing to reply off-topic such that
>     the main
>     >> purpose of the community is drowning into the background is
>     >> disrespectful. Don't do it. For example, it would be rude of me to
>     >> go to a meeting of alcoholics anonymous and use my turn to talk so
>     >> that I might espouse the benefits of a vegetarian diet. Don't
>     do it.
>     >>
>     >> - Using the delete key is not the answer because that only
>     masks the
>     >> destruction of the group's purpose. And only masks it for one
>     person.
>     >> Same with filters.
>     >> - Flagging as "OT" is helpful but when the OT posts dwarf the
>     >> purpose-oriented information, such a tag is nearly useless.
>     >> - Moderation is not the answer because that will suck
>     volunteer's time
>     >> and smacks of "babysitter-ism" Do we really need to be forced into
>     >> good manners? Really?
>     >>
>     >> This is a Linux email list created by a Linux User Group for the
>     >> purposes of discussing Linux and subjects directly related to
>     Linux.
>     >> Period. Politics should only be discussed when it directly effects
>     >> Linux/OSS/FS use and promotion in some way. To continue all this
>     >> discussion of boycotts, immigration and the like is killing the
>     core
>     >> meaning of the group.
>     >>
>     >> Stop. Please.
>     >>
>     >> Alan
>