Killing PLUG softly

Wed May 19 08:18:14 MST 2010

I've been a member of several tech lists for over 10 years.  Each have the same discussions about some off topic subject matter.

I tend to believe we are a community.  I belong to a Christian community and we talk about other things.  This is a group that meets weekly, in person.  We do not just talk about Jesus.  Jesus is our focus however we tend to talk about everything.  There are opposing parties, to the extreme sometimes.  However for some reason we do not try to censor, for the most part, and we still continue to meet.  I would say that unlike this group our core values are inline with the group at large. 

What keeps us here is technology.  Some would say Linux.  Okay maybe that is the core.  However I've asked windows questions, programming questions, and data questions.  Occasionally there is a question about TV's and other very off topic questions.

I think recently I asked about digital camcorders.

For the most part the list is tame and no one gets upset.  That is true of the other two lists I belong to.

Is there a lack of social skills that cause us to go off topic?  I think not.  We do not live in a vacuum.

I'm not sure we would ever have a sterile list.  One of the lists I belong to has meet several times to become organized and each time the consensus was the list does not want any rules, period.

I think each of us is attracted to Linux for the same reason.  We are a counter culture, at least that was true 10 years ago.

I've enjoyed this list for maybe 10 years.  I appreciate the people on this list that have great skills and knowledge and are willing to share some of that with me. 

I believe this list will survive and if anything will become stronger.  Even though I disagree with some of you, politically, I admire your skill set and your willingness to help others.

This thread has taken on a life of it's own as well.  I think we, for the most part, will see off topic discussions laces with threats to leave the list, and resistance to those who want to kill any off topic discussion.  I believe that is the nature of the list serve community. 

------------------------

Keith Smith

--- On Tue, 5/18/10, Kurt Granroth <kurt+plug-discuss at granroth.com> wrote:

From: Kurt Granroth <kurt+plug-discuss at granroth.com>
Subject: Re: Killing PLUG softly
To: plug-discuss at lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
Date: Tuesday, May 18, 2010, 10:16 PM

Indeed.  I've been a part of countless mailing lists over the years and have always counted plug-discuss as one of the better ones.  There has historically been a much higher than average signal-to-noise ratio.

All long-running and active lists will eventually run into cases where a few select individuals just don't have the social skills to work within the confines of a mailing list.  The excuse that people used to toss about a few years ago was the supposed higher prevalence of Asperger Syndrome in tech circles.  In the 90s, the excuse was all of the people coming from AOL (and other newbie circles).  Lately, I hear lots of excuses about people growing up using the Internet as a communication platform and just never learned how to deal with other people.

The end result is the same!  There will be specific people who will "poison" a list (and likely not even know that that's what they are doing).  The only difference is how lists handle this.

Option 1 is to do nothing.  This does work in a lot of cases since, well, the offending parties often get bored and leave on their own. It's a dangerous tack to take, though, since not doing anything can often also drive away productive members of the community during the stress times.

Option 2 is to start moderating.  This rarely works.  I mean, it'll work to stop the immediate poisoning... but I've found that most lists go into a death spiral the instant a formerly free list becomes moderated.

That leaves Option 3 -- banning the ones who just don't get along. That's always a rough choice and one not to be taken likely.  However, in my experience, it usually works pretty well in the end, too.  Really, the only problem with PLUG at this point is that there really isn't a central authority that can definitively make such decisions.

Of course, while this is hardly a unique situation, it doesn't make it any easier to stomach.  Alas.

On 5/18/10 9:57 PM, Jim wrote:
> Well said, Alan.
> 
> I was there when PLUG reformed and watched it grow into a vibrant part
> of the Linux community. While we all have opinions about a myriad of
> topics, the binding thread of this part of the Linux community, this
> mailing list, is not, never was, and never should be a venue for
> extended discussions of non-Linux-related topics.
> 
> When I saw a particular discussion devolve into lies and insulting
> name-calling, I was ashamed! Too bad those who perpetuated that
> discussion would not or could not act sooner.
> 
> Here, we are all PLUG! If you dont like being part of PLUG, if you
> choose to degenerate one of the best parts of PLUG into vile ranting and
> baseless accusations, spare the rest of us and take your pettiness
> elsewhere.
> 
> ::steppiung off the soap box::
> 
> Alan Dayley wrote:
>> I've stayed out of this latest round of off-topic threads. I am happy
>> to see vibrant discussion. I am unhappy to see personal attacks and
>> other silliness. I'm unhappy to see it go on and on.
>> 
>> This is enough. It's just enough.
>> 
>> I don't go to a email list or forum on topic A to be drown in
>> discussions about topic W. That topic W may be important, the points
>> and counter-points offered in brilliance and courtesy doesn't matter.
>> If the venue is supposed to be about topic A, the majority of the
>> conversation should be about topic A. Etiquette and respect for the
>> community around the chosen topic dictate that other topics should be
>> minimal.
>> 
>> It doesn't matter how strongly you feel about what someone said about
>> some off-topic post. Continuing to reply off-topic such that the main
>> purpose of the community is drowning into the background is
>> disrespectful. Don't do it. For example, it would be rude of me to
>> go to a meeting of alcoholics anonymous and use my turn to talk so
>> that I might espouse the benefits of a vegetarian diet. Don't do it.
>> 
>> - Using the delete key is not the answer because that only masks the
>> destruction of the group's purpose. And only masks it for one person.
>> Same with filters.
>> - Flagging as "OT" is helpful but when the OT posts dwarf the
>> purpose-oriented information, such a tag is nearly useless.
>> - Moderation is not the answer because that will suck volunteer's time
>> and smacks of "babysitter-ism" Do we really need to be forced into
>> good manners? Really?
>> 
>> This is a Linux email list created by a Linux User Group for the
>> purposes of discussing Linux and subjects directly related to Linux.
>> Period. Politics should only be discussed when it directly effects
>> Linux/OSS/FS use and promotion in some way. To continue all this
>> discussion of boycotts, immigration and the like is killing the core
>> meaning of the group.
>> 
>> Stop. Please.
>> 
>> Alan
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