OT: Emergency Buy Out

Sun Sep 28 23:08:36 MST 2008

On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 10:58 PM, Lisa Kachold <lisakachold at obnosis.com> wrote:
> http://www.mises.org/article.aspx?Id=1454  From 2001 - Referencing modern
> Free Market economics take on Greenspan's Fed.
>
> The issue is that neither the liberals nor the conservatives can implement a
> complete solution, a law, or agreement while fully informing the public.
> The press continues to fail to report in intelligent ways and even if we did
> get the full info, our control over the beast is long gone!
>
> We don't borrow 2 billion a day for the country's operations or even for
> operations and funding of the Iran/Iraq/Pakistan military efforts, nor even
> for foreign aid and all the former.

  Excuse me?  http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

>
> But that is a famous Ron Paul quote that can't be backed with fact:  "When
> we borrow a billion dollars every day simply to run the government, and when
> the Federal Reserve increases the money supply by trillions of dollars in
> just 15 years, we hardly can expect our dollars to increase in value."

  This isn't some kind of Ron Paul heresy, its based on the real numbers.

  I find it surprising that Americans have not pledged their
allegiance to this person who has been claiming that this was going to
happen all along.  The resistance is typically on Ron Paul's attitude
towards particular social issues...  jmz

>
> The truth is that the annual deficit will raise to 482 billion already, not
> counting the "Buy Out" or the alternative they are trying to cover up - in
> law for FDIC/Freddy Mac and Fannie Mae.   We already spent the money we
> would have "backed" the insured Fanny Mae, and Freddy Mac loans; we can't
> even afford the FDIC insurance for what's already hit the skids.
>
> And Ron Paul is correct in that he had spent a great amount of time studying
> Ludwig Von Mises and current economic systems.  Unfortunely his solutions
> also don't work, despite his words ringing true  -- there is no way to get
> "there" from here!
>
> http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2008-09-20-3359382348_x.htm
>
> Both parties are equally corrupt.  The two party system only works when
> swinging wildly two and fro.   Ron Paul and Nader are offshoots of short
> term solution that exists only as idealism will not be widely backed.
>
> If a workable viable solution exists, it has to come from this type of
> chaos.
>
> Moreover, since we can't trust this, don't we also wonder that at a very
> deep level we can't trust even the voting apparatus?
>
> We do live in the country that killed King, Kennedys, and many many others?
>
> I am going back to my comfortable magical theorum that the CERN LHC particle
> collider is to blame for the "end of the world as we know it" ...and I feel
> fine!
>
> http://public.web.cern.ch/public/en/LHC/LHC-en.html
>
> || Obnosis.com
>
> ________________________________
>> Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 22:28:05 -0700
>> From: jjzeidner at gmail.com
>> To: plug-discuss at lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
>> Subject: Re: OT: Emergency Buy Out
>>
>> Lisa,
>>
>> clearly the bill at this point is a way for the banking execs to
>> get theirs before its too late. I can't believe this thing has even
>> gotten this far. Any idiot can already see we are in crisis. Did you
>> know that we borrow ~2 billion A DAY to keep our system running? At
>> what point does the line of credit end?
>>
>> -jmz
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 10:00 PM, Lisa Kachold <lisakachold at obnosis.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Except that the government doesn't have the money to meet FDIC failed
>> > deposits. It also doesn't have any way to meet the Fanny Mae and Freddy
>> > Mac
>> > guarantees. It's BROKEN and their "bail out" is not going to actually
>> > help
>> > all of the companies and individuals who have more than $100,000 in one
>> > bank.
>> >
>> > We have no real free market; instead partial government regulation,
>> > Federal
>> > insurance and partial controls that have CREATED this issue.
>> >
>> > What they will do, is manage the mess to hide their lack of ability to
>> > meet
>> > the FDIC and Fanny Mae/Freddy Mac historical requirements while hiding
>> > amidst the crisis. In the end, there will be no government involvement
>> > beyond "taxpayer" investments.
>> >
>> > It will undo a system in place for many years, recently broken by
>> > failure to
>> > provide oversight in government involvement. Economists have long been
>> > forecasting these events, starting in 2001; no legislator acted, instead
>> > our
>> > gridlocked parties, each without a solution or agenda that in total
>> > flowcharts to consistent success, drew salaries, often on bank boards -
>> > like
>> > McCain.
>> >
>> > It's a wee bit hard to sit by and listen to the rhetoric that profit is
>> > bad
>> > for "big executives" as if we live in a socialistic regiem. [A $500,000
>> > salary is still acceptable - I see?]
>> >
>> > The solution will reduce only the government losses, the financial fall
>> > is
>> > of course the market righting itself. Buying and selling, and
>> > repackaging
>> > and selling unsecured or partially secured and mostly vapor debts in the
>> > way
>> > of real estate loans under the umbrella of Freddy Mac and Fanny Mae was
>> > just
>> > the start, but it began in the late 1990's.
>> >
>> > If you didn't notice, American's continual denial that there IS A
>> > PROBLEM,
>> > complete failure to understand the credit systems, and unwillingness to
>> > change anything seems to be broken wide open. As I drive around the
>> > Matrix's spell seems to have lifted. Everyone sees the huge number of
>> > homeless beggars, storefronts empty, and worse.
>> >
>> > The press continues to report the full ramifications on CNN and network
>> > news.
>> >
>> > The ramifications for the American dollar as unsecured loans are made,
>> > and
>> > the government begins to play the market are also huge.
>> >
>> > This is far too little too late.
>> >
>> > Add to this the potential insurance giant liquidity changes from
>> > socialized
>> > medicine, and it's the END of the WORLD as we know it?
>> >
>> > || Obnosis.com
>> > ________________________________
>> > ________________________________
>> > Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 21:11:52 -0700
>> > From: eric.cope at gmail.com
>> > To: plug-discuss at lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
>> > Subject: Re: OT: Emergency Buy Out
>> >
>> > I thought I answered that question. Yes. The longer we drag this out,
>> > the
>> > harsher it will be when the house of cards falls. You can not prevent
>> > the
>> > economic cycle. Good companies will survive. Bad ones will fail. It is
>> > absolutely required that this cycle take place. Its how progress is
>> > enabled.
>> >
>> > On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 5:16 PM, Craig White <craigwhite at azapple.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > On Sun, 2008-09-28 at 16:52 -0700, Eric Cope wrote:
>> >> If you could point out the free market, I would appreciate it. A free
>> >> market has two required market forces, profit AND loss. When the
>> >> government removes the chance of loss (like with Fannie, Freddie,
>> >> FDIC, etc), people and corporations are not only permitted, but
>> >> encouraged to participate in foolish economic agreements. We do not
>> >> enjoy a free market. We are enduring within a perverse bastardized
>> >> socialist system.
>> >>
>> >> Oh, and by the way... the only depression we have ever suffered is due
>> >> to government interference.
>> >>
>> >> And, if we have artificially overhyped our economy with tax-based
>> >> systems, then yes, we need a recession to bring us back to reality.
>> >> It was the housing bubble that knocked some sense into people
>> >> regarding real estate. They would have learned their lesson if we
>> >> didn't bail them out...
>> >>
>> >> Economics is not about generating warm fuzzies for everyone. Its about
>> >> doing whats right for everyone. That does not include giving anything
>> >> to anyone.
>> > ----
>> > "Oh, and by the way... the only depression we have ever suffered is due
>> > to
>> > government interference."
>> >
>> > It's a good thing you aren't resorting to simplistic blame for
>> > historical events.
>> >
>> > I think it was revealed today that Hank Paulson dragged along his
>> > previous compatriot, Lloyd C. Blankfein of Goldman Sachs to the Federal
>> > Reserve meeting regarding the bailout of AIG insurance wherein it
>> > becomes suspect because this is somewhat unprecedented. Paulson because
>> > of his previous employment at Goldman Sachs knew that Goldman Sachs was
>> > a major trading partner of AIG and that the failure of AIG would cause
>> > substantial if not irreparable harm to Goldman Sachs. It's clear that
>> > the conflicts of interest throughout are really, really ugly.
>> >
>> > But again, all of the blame, finger pointing and decrying the lack of
>> > true free market practice merely distracts from the question that I
>> > asked...
>> >
>> > If Congress elects to provide no aid other than to federally
>> > insured/underwritings and you accept the premise that without providing
>> > more capital to the market place and businesses continue laying off
>> > people, investment portfolios continue to devalue...
>> >
>> > are you willing to accept a recession, possibly a deep recession or even
>> > a wide scale depression so that taxpayers do not 'bail out' private
>> > interests?
>> >
>> > I think that is a very key question and merely tossing blame doesn't get
>> > anywhere near the answer...at some point, you have to stand up and be
>> > counted.
>> >
>> > Craig
>> >
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>>
>>
>> --
>> "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World
>> War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." --Albert Einstein
>>
>> - http://www.joshuazeidner.com/
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"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World
War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." --Albert Einstein

   - http://www.joshuazeidner.com/