ot: Fourth Amendment... gone forever?

[Technomage-hawke]

On Tuesday 12 February 2008 21:31, Craig White wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-02-12 at 21:12 -0700, Jason Hayes wrote:
> > On Tuesday 12 February 2008 7:14:33 pm Kristian Erik Hermansen wrote:
> > > +1.  For Michale Moore, you could tell he was holding back to try
> > > being "fair and balanced".  Health care in the USA is a joke compared
> > > to the UK.  You don't believe it?  Watch the movie and ask any of your
> > > friends who have had care in both places...
> >
> > Or you can ask me. I endured the Canadian health care system for over 30
> > years. To clear things up, it's not the panacea you appear to think it
> > is. The US health care system -- expensive as it may be -- is light years
> > ahead of the Canadian and British systems.
> >
> > A few quick examples from my own life experience.
> >
> > 1) I had to wait over 18 months to get a simple, outpatient operation to
> > fix an inguinal hernia in late 2004. The only reason I was "rushed" in at
> > the 18 month mark was that I was to the point where I could barely
> > function any more. If I hadn't pushed the issue, the surgeon's office
> > would have let me sit on the waiting list for my originally scheduled
> > date -- six months later.
> >
> > 2) My mother waited over 2 years to get one hip replaced and has waited
> > over two more years to get the other done (four years and still waiting).
> >
> > 4) My wife's step-grandfather was diagnosed with prostate cancer in
> > November last year and was told that he will need to wait until June to
> > get in to see the specialist to determine how they will treat his cancer.
> > Eight months of letting the cancer grow before they will even take a
> > first look at it.
> >
> > 5) My wife and I lived in Calgary, AB for five years. In that time, we
> > were only able to get our kids into a pediatrician once, after we were
> > referred by another doctor. Additionally, none of the doctors we could
> > find were taking on new patients, so any time we needed health care, we
> > went to walk-ins (urgent care) or the emergency room.
> >
> > Those are the first few examples that come to mind. If I needed to, I
> > could dig up a lot more.
> >
> > Regarding your first assertion, Michael Moore doesn't have the first clue
> > what life is like under socialized health care and you don't see him
> > traveling to Cuba for his check ups and surgery, do you?
> >
> > The simple truth is that people are dying on wait lists in Canada, Great
> > Britain, and France. Worse, they're made to wait like that after having
> > paid 50%+ taxes for their "free" health care.
> >
> > Don't fall for it. The grass is not greener on the other side of that
> > fence.
>
> ----
> oh but it is...
>
> In any of the countries you mention above, you are not subject to
> exclusions for pre-existing conditions, large deductibles, medical
> decisions made by health insurance companies and of course, of all the
> countries mention, this is the only one where people routinely have to
> declare bankruptcy because of the phenomenal costs of health care, and
> this hits both insured and uninsured people.

be that as it may, the waiting periods often imposed can pose a far higher 
risk to health than being treated in a "timely" manner.

I was a "mil brat" in my youth and had a few run-ins with foreign medical 
services. lets just say, even though our system here in the states is broken, 
its still in loads better shape than elsewhere (except perhaps Japan).

I happen to live under such a system right here in Arizona: its call AHCCCS 
(pronounced "access"). it is, by no means the most friendly of places. if I 
had a choice of income, I'd take private insurance any day. "state sponsored" 
insurance contracts are rife with corruption and are generally modeled on 
the "socialized medicine" of places like Canada and the UK (I should know, it 
took me months to get treatment for a problem that only grew worse with 
time).

>
> Then add to the equation the vast numbers of uninsured, the percentage
> of the nations GDP that is given to the health care industry (and
> rising) and the cost escalations for health care the last 5 years and
> the projected increases in health care costs over the next 5 years and
> it is clearly a system that is deeply broken.

have you seen where most of the funding goes in pharmaceutical research these 
days? 60% of the cost to consumers is directly tied to advertising expenses! 
check the TV on the late afternoon-evening circuit if you don't believe me. 
those commercials cost a mint.


>
> For every 'horror story' that you list above, there are surely 10 horror
> stories in the American health care system...
>
> http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-kaiser4may04,0,335770.story?track=t
>othtml
riiiiight. this is a case of an HMO with overzealous rules and regulations in 
place and possible corruption in the organization. I've seen this with Humana 
as well. This is not true everywhere as there are insurance plans that do 
cover this sort of situation. The HMO mentioned in the article as 
actually "an integrated managed care organization" that was started by an 
industrialist/physician back in the mid 1940's. they have over 8.7 million 
health plan members. the situation described in the article in Northern 
california may have been the result of local mismanagement or poor 
communications (25 patients out of 8.7 million is a ridiculously low 
complaint ration and yeah, those 25 patients probably have good grounds to 
sue). It is, however, possible that this is the exception in the private 
sector and not the rule (as is generally known in medicare and the V.A.).

socialized medicine (especially that proposed at the national level) is a 
disaster waiting to happen (read above for my experience)