Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 165, Issue 3

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Author: Eric Oyen
Date:  
To: Main PLUG discussion list
Subject: Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 165, Issue 3
Speaking of BSD environments…

Well, Theo DeRaadt still won’t make his OS accessible. In fact, he expects someone like me to go through the process of coding the apps, patching and finally submitting to the ports system (for lengthly review, etc.). All I wanted was to have BrilTTY included as a possible startup option on the installation disks for OpenBSD.

Now, there is an accessibility project going over at NetBSD, but I haven’t had a lot of time to download and try it out. The forums are still abuzz with technical issues and the like and ORCA still would have to be patched and ported in order to work on an X Desktop there. So, unless things radically change, I am stuck with a few Linux Distros and not much hope for a more secure OS anytime soon.

If I had a ride up to the black hat convention in Las Vegas next time Theo is there, I might meet with him in open forum and have him explain before a very public audience why it is that many blind users like me are left out of the picture on his OS. Perhaps it might spur him into action and to doing the right thing. Or, it might cause him to dig in and never do anything (I hope for the former, but expect the latter, if you know what I mean). We blind users expect to be able to use technology and there really is no longer any excuse not to make Operating systems accessible..

Anyway, that’s my take on the BSD world. And yes, like you, I don’t want to have to face breakages, moved items or removed items that I found useful. You know how it is with engineers, they just love to change things!

-Eric
From the central offices of the Technomage Guild, Technology for all Dept.


> On Mar 5, 2019, at 12:39 AM, Thomas Scott <> wrote:
>
> I've moved towards arch and even BSD in personal use over the past few years away from ubuntu. I don't want massive changes, I want solid, slow changes. Funny how when I first got into Linux a decade ago, I loved the "cutting edge", now when I see something new, I'm more likely to yell at my computer "You moved that WHERE?!".
>
> In the day (night) job, it's RH. As MB noted, when it comes to the enterprise, it's still supreme. Especially with Openstack gaining as much ground as it has, Canonical lags far behind RH and even Mirantis in support. Kind of sad to see my old favorite dwindle so much.
>
> On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 12:00 AM Eric Oyen < <mailto:eric.oyen@icloud.com>> wrote:
> Well, from an accessibility standpoint, Ubbuntu is one of the better distros around. ORCA screen reader, BrlTTY, speak, emacsspeak and several others are available and even the initial setup is accessible. I haven’t tried this on arch yet and until I research it, I can’t give a qualified opinion on arch.
>
> -Eric
> From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Dept of Research and Development.
>
>
>> On Mar 4, 2019, at 4:25 PM, Michael Butash < <mailto:michael@butash.net>> wrote:
>>
>> It's little things like that that make the distro to be honest. Don't piss me off, don't die catastrophically randomly, don't upgrade and leave me at some nebulous boot prompt. Ubuntu did that to me too many times, Arch has been downright gentile by comparison, particularly for as complex a setup as I have here.
>>
>> I'm fairly particular about breaking down os partitions, /, /boot, /var, /var/log, /usr, /home, and anything else plugged in. I would always use 200mb for my /boot, then some point kernels got huge and couldn't store more than 3 on that. Leaving auto-upgrade on ubuntu for 6 months at a time would fill the boot drive and start failed upgrades annoyingly, so something like that in Fedora is appreciated. I've not trusted ubuntu auto-upgrades, or ubuntu much at all since.
>>
>> Now I just throw /boot a gig, and typically about the same for EFI from secureboot nonsense, so it works out. Arch doesn't normally keep multiple kernels around, so not an issue here.
>>
>> I still have never liked RH-derivatives however, and still grimace using them after 20 years. I did however install cent7 not long ago on my network test rigs as the only distro that supported my 100gb nic drivers, and it didn't seem terrible to use these days. Might try it sometime, but so far Arch hasn't given me reason to ever leave it.
>>
>> -mb
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 3:39 PM Harold Hartley < <mailto:wheelie207@ownmail.net>> wrote:
>> It’s good to get useful info on arch and I agree about Ubuntu as I also had problems with it.
>> I now run fedora and have no problems with at all. I find updates pretty much everyday with bug fixes and new files being installed. I even like how it installs the new kernel and removes the older kernel that’s 3 versions back.
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, at 14:47, Michael Butash wrote:
>>> Arch is mostly precompiled binaries if using standard pacman repos, their standard package manager.
>>>
>>> Installing other package managers like yaourt introduce community repos, ala deb/ubuntu ppa repos, which may or may not just compile something on the fly for you if no binary package available. I don't think I've ever NOT found something I needed in pacman or yaourt repos under arch that I've had to compile manually, and both binary or compiling on the fly via yaourt have worked almost flawlessly.
>>>
>>> I've run Arch on my desktop for at least 2 years now, and it's been the best change I've made in a long while. Rolling upgrades are great, I've not encountered one failed upgrade with arch, vs. like every fscking time upgrading any ubuntu system that fails horribly, almost reliably, every time. I've run into a few upgrade issues, usually with a conflicting 3rd party package that has been replaced, but otherwise has worked flawlessly.
>>>
>>> That said, I can't make it work on my laptop to save my life, but I think it's more a matter of current kernel, grub, systemd, and various bits not playing nicely with my luks+lvm setup. If not requiring things like encryption and logical volumes, it's probably pretty easy to walk-through, but only for an advanced (or sadist newbie) user.
>>>
>>> Arch has been great once booting and working, I have half a dozen different DE's installed on here, and basically rotate between what one is less broken each upgrade,. A fault, not of Arch's so much the individual DE's that can't figure out high-resolution compositing, rotating between sucking or not. I've been using Mate for a distinct lack of compositing, which proves most stable. I just don't like the menu and a lack of type-to-search feature in it...
>>>
>>> I've tried switching off my laptop Ubuntu install as with 18.04 upgrade, it locked me into Wayland, which simply does NOT work with any other DE on it. I can't launch into KDE, Cinnamon, Mate, or anything else on it, they just fail at login - only Gnome3 (Ubuntu Bastard-Edition) works, with many, many problems that about make it infuriating to use. I've not hated a DE so much in a long time, thanks Ubuntu. but stuck as the only thing working on my laptop other than windoze my xps15 came with. I'll get frisky and try Arch again soon.
>>>
>>> Trick is finding a distro you like, your comfortable with, and doesn't randomly break with every upgrade. Ubuntu is NOT the latter, expect upgrades to fail you, this coming from someone living Ubuntu since 6.04. Other distros, ymmv.
>>>
>>> -mb
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 2:02 PM Harold Hartley < <mailto:wheelie207@ownmail.net>> wrote:
>>> > __
>>> > I thought arch was just binary. Never knew they started having both.
>>> > If arch is offering a binary system, isn’t that a closed system and doesn’t that violate open source license. That is my question.
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, at 13:58, Stephen Partington wrote:
>>> >> Arch if i am correct is both. and like Gentoo you can build as you install with the option of compile from source.
>>> >>
>>> >> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 1:40 PM Harold Hartley < <mailto:wheelie207@ownmail.net>> wrote:
>>> >> > __
>>> >> > The first part you said I couldn’t have said any better.
>>> >> > Now isn’t arch a binary system which has their system files and packages in binary form.
>>> >> > That doesn’t leave much for fixing a problem on the system if it’s binary files.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, at 13:27, Stephen Partington wrote:
>>> >> >> Mostly it is just a personal preference. Sometimes it is related to the window manager. Sometimes it is the package manager. There are a number of reasons.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> I personally am torn between arch and Ubuntu (especially with their lite install option) I like both for different reasons. I have been considering moving to arch on my laptop.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, 12:04 PM Aaron Jones < <mailto:retro64xyz@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> >> >> > To entertain all the people who can't do Arch.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > Le Troll Face.jpeg here
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 11:29 AM Stephen Elliott < <mailto:tnflyfisher@live.com>> wrote:
>>> >> >> >> What is the purpose of all these different distros?
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> > On Mar 3, 2019, at 12:00 PM, < <mailto:plug-discuss-request@lists.phxlinux.org>> < <mailto:plug-discuss-request@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > Send PLUG-discuss mailing list submissions to
>>> >> >> >> > <mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>> >> >> >> > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.phxlinux.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fplug-discuss&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060787903&amp;sdata=qJghQhX9hWHCKzKKW9aBQO2zzPJ46052LA8aHlCqZm8%3D&amp;reserved=0 <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.phxlinux.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fplug-discuss&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060787903&amp;sdata=qJghQhX9hWHCKzKKW9aBQO2zzPJ46052LA8aHlCqZm8%3D&amp;reserved=0>
>>> >> >> >> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>> >> >> >> > <mailto:plug-discuss-request@lists.phxlinux.org>
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>>> >> >> >> > <mailto:plug-discuss-owner@lists.phxlinux.org>
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> >> >> >> > than "Re: Contents of PLUG-discuss digest..."
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > Today's Topics:
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > 1. Re: Phoenix Linux (Matthew Crews)
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > Message: 1
>>> >> >> >> > Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2019 15:15:37 +0100 (CET)
>>> >> >> >> > From: Matthew Crews < <mailto:mailinglists@mattcrews.com>>
>>> >> >> >> > To: <mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>
>>> >> >> >> > Subject: Re: Phoenix Linux
>>> >> >> >> > Message-ID: < <mailto:c07a8f64-f2ad-bc77-5bcd-1227c27d2d52@mattcrews.com>>
>>> >> >> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > On 3/1/19 6:18 PM, der.hans wrote:
>>> >> >> >> >> moin moin,
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> I have seen references to this, but for the first time went and looked.
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> Phoenix Linux - based on lubuntu 16.04.3 LTS
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphoenixlinux.weebly.com%2F&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060787903&amp;sdata=gbDmb4Xv3bBpMO%2By4qtTA2sPhge2s82e39Mx3Daj%2F0M%3D&amp;reserved=0 <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphoenixlinux.weebly.com%2F&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060787903&amp;sdata=gbDmb4Xv3bBpMO%2By4qtTA2sPhge2s82e39Mx3Daj%2F0M%3D&amp;reserved=0>
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> Has anyone tried it?
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> ciao,
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> der.hans
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > I haven't tried it, but it looks like a hobby respin of Lubuntu, but
>>> >> >> >> > with none of the support (and lagging behind upstream by a significant
>>> >> >> >> > margin).
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > Hobby distros, especially hobby respins, are a tough sell for me because
>>> >> >> >> > of the lack of support. I'd normally prefer to stick to upstream (in
>>> >> >> >> > this case, Lubuntu).
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > The same person responsible for Phoenix also makes Feren OS, which is
>>> >> >> >> > based off of Linux Mint (and in the process of rebasing to Ubuntu LTS).
>>> >> >> >> > Feren is relatively well received and does have a support structure, and
>>> >> >> >> > looks fairly nice.
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > -------------- next part --------------
>>> >> >> >> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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>>> >> >> >> > Size: 833 bytes
>>> >> >> >> > Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
>>> >> >> >> > URL: <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.phxlinux.org%2Fpipermail%2Fplug-discuss%2Fattachments%2F20190303%2F22561458%2Fattachment-0001.sig&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060787903&amp;sdata=a1CDo73PR2qUDpuKqP2uHdFA5MkwgUnr1dtAkxfO2pE%3D&amp;reserved=0 <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.phxlinux.org%2Fpipermail%2Fplug-discuss%2Fattachments%2F20190303%2F22561458%2Fattachment-0001.sig&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060787903&amp;sdata=a1CDo73PR2qUDpuKqP2uHdFA5MkwgUnr1dtAkxfO2pE%3D&amp;reserved=0>>
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > ------------------------------
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > Subject: Digest Footer
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>>> >> >> >> > PLUG-discuss mailing list - <mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>
>>> >> >> >> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>> >> >> >> > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.phxlinux.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fplug-discuss&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060797908&amp;sdata=YLMpxM2zMugze0XPXfgXobTT3pLOFEg6yvfy3bAz6IE%3D&amp;reserved=0 <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.phxlinux.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fplug-discuss&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060797908&amp;sdata=YLMpxM2zMugze0XPXfgXobTT3pLOFEg6yvfy3bAz6IE%3D&amp;reserved=0>
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > ------------------------------
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > End of PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 165, Issue 3
>>> >> >> >> > ********************************************
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------
>>> >> >> >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - <mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>
>>> >> >> >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>> >> >> >> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss <https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss>
>>> >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------
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>>> >> >> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>> >> >> > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss <https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss>
>>> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------
>>> >> >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - <mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>
>>> >> >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>> >> >> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss <https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss>
>>> >> >
>>> >> > --
>>> >> > Harold Hartley
>>> >> > 17632 N. 5th place
>>> >> > Phoenix, AZ 85022
>>> >> > <mailto:wheelie207@ownmail.net>
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > ---------------------------------------------------
>>> >> > PLUG-discuss mailing list - <mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>
>>> >> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>> >> > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss <https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button.
>>> >>
>>> >> Stephen
>>> >>
>>> >> ---------------------------------------------------
>>> >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - <mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>
>>> >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>> >> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss <https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss>
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Harold Hartley
>>> > 17632 N. 5th place
>>> > Phoenix, AZ 85022
>>> > <mailto:wheelie207@ownmail.net>
>>> >
>>> > ---------------------------------------------------
>>> > PLUG-discuss mailing list - <mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>
>>> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>> > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss <https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - <mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>
>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss <https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss>
>>
>> --
>> Harold Hartley
>> 17632 N. 5th place
>> Phoenix, AZ 85022
>> <mailto:wheelie207@ownmail.net>
>>
>>
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