On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:09 PM, Alan Dayley<
alandd@consultpros.com> wrote:
> Joshua,
>
> I put all your replies together in one long document and reread them.
> I am still confused a bit. Enlightenment via email rarely occurs.
> However, I really want to understand your position in this discussion.
> Let me summarize what I understand from your replies.
>
> ---[Start my paraphasing of your comments]---
>
> - There is a small group or groups of people who keep spinning off
> communities using tired marketing techniques. This results in blogs
> but not true communities.
>
> - Some of these people cannot deal with existing structure and the
> efforts of the past.
>
> - These weak attempts do not articulate goals or purpose well, if at all.
>
> - We must honestly look at criticism to learn and improve.
>
> - These weak people need to address the efforts of the past and
> provide suggestions on how they can be improved upon.
>
> - Getting political support will provide legitimacy to their efforts.
>
> - Phoenix will attract technology businesses because of the relative
> low cost and this will help improve things.
>
> - You have first hand experiences of weak, marketing fronted,
> community building efforts.
>
> - Many 'entrepreneurs' have grand ideas but get nowhere with them
> because they are not real businesses.
>
> - People at a co-working location or coffee shop will not help you
> with your business unless you pay them.
>
> - Most people at co-working started their one person business after
> being laid-off and are not serious about it. They are really just
> looking for the next full time gig. This will get in your way if you
> have real business work to do.
>
> - We must look truthfully at this issue if we are to make progress.
>
> - There are no serious incubators and entrepreneurial meetups in
> Phoenix. No announcements on VC funding of companies so it's not
> really entrepreneurial growth.
>
> ---[End my paraphrasing of your comments]---
>
> I see validity in every one of these comments. I also think many of
> them can be balanced by the other point of view. I still have
> questions, if I may ask, before I state too much of my own thinking.
> I want to learn more about your thinking.
>
> 1. What does "deal with existing structure" mean? This confuses me,
> not know what structure you are talking about.
Many user groups have been formed and continue to exist... how is
<groupX> different? other than its led by person Y? I mean dealing
with some of these groups I feel like Im back to age 8 trying to gain
admittance into the neighborhood treehouse. Perhaps I should spend
more time drinking beer with these people? Seeing the same small
group churning out 'communities' is at first funny, then annoying. I
just see a real lack of serious intent, and unless that is noted
publicly, it makes all of us look bad. I really dont think Im being
destructive or malicious here, Im pointing out some valid
observations.
>
> 2. To what efforts of the past are you referring? I want to
> understand the size and nature of efforts to creating a community that
> you feel were legitimate but perhaps did not work as planned.
I remember when I first came to AZ that there was an tech
incubator... what happened to it? Which political agents currently
support technology development in the valley? what do they think
about your org? these things are pretty basic...
>
> 3. What political support is needed? You mean government funding of
> events or startups or just verbal support or what?
I wouldn't expect funding, but it would be good to see some
political buy in. Lack of just supports my opinions, that its really
as Lisa said, camouflage for poor organization. Without any good
signposts, all this will produce are people who get jaded and
disaffected with regards to this location. If you had something
together I doubt that a good politician would turn you down.
>
> 4. Why is it wrong or a problem for someone who is laid-off to have
> grand ideas, talk about them and they never come to be?
Its not. As I said, I don't find any of these things highly
offensive- but like you I am free to express myself. Sorry if its not
filled with abundant exaltations.
>
> 5. Is it not conceivable that people might help each other in business
> efforts? Isn't strengthening and creating such a culture a good idea
> or should such a goal not be pursued because it is not practically
> possible?
sure. good thread btw. -jmz
>
> Alan
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Joshua Zeidner<jjzeidner@gmail.com> wrote:
>> another great one:
>>
>> "OK, my question stands. Where are the incubators, the "bootstrap"
>> seminars, the serious entrepreneurial meetups in Phoenix??? (crickets
>> chirping). Phoenix just ain't happening as a serious place where
>> serious people are doing serious things. No one wants it badly enough
>> here. This paper should be having at least one article a week on a new
>> startup and the VC firm who funded it. Helloooo????? is anybody out
>> there...."
>>
>> a better way to phrase this: we need to stop pretending these
>> whimsical efforts churned out by local self-employed marketing experts
>> are sufficient. They are not. We should be asking the hard
>> questions, not playing games.
>>
>> -jmz
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Joshua Zeidner<jjzeidner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> another point, honestly reading through some of the criticisms on
>>> azcentral and being of the cafe dwelling creed myself, I'd have to say
>>> that many of those points are accurate. I've heard lots of
>>> 'entrepreneurs' with big ideas around here who never get anywhere with
>>> them. Sorry, but a word press template doesn't make you an
>>> entrepreneur.
>>>
>>> "These are the same people you see at Starbucks, Boarders or any
>>> other wi-fi hot spot, they are not entrepreneurs they are attention
>>> (inappropriate term)."
>>>
>>> "Many of the Co-Worker location founders tout other people to
>>> collaborate with and who can "compensate for your deficiencies". Do
>>> you really believe someone that you are not paying as an employee is
>>> going to somehow compensate for your deficiencies and make your
>>> business better? That kind of help doesn't come without a price."
>>>
>>> oh so true...
>>>
>>> "You are more likely to get a bunch of people chatting to you over
>>> your "work" so you wont be concentrating as you should to focus on
>>> your business. Most of these people started businesses after being
>>> laid off. They are searching for a new job and they aren't really
>>> serious about their "businesses" so how do you expect them to give you
>>> valuable, serious advice. Are these the kind of people you need to
>>> compensate for your deficiencies? A bunch of people half-as running
>>> their "business" while searching for a real job and bothering you with
>>> their expertise that got them laid off in the first place."
>>>
>>> oh so so true...
>>>
>>> I would be willing to bet the commenter above is an tried and true
>>> successful entrepreneur. Perhaps the reason I am so skeptical is
>>> because I know these kind of people so well.
>>>
>>> sorry I really wish I could be more supportive... but : truth is
>>> the foundation of progress.
>>>
>>> -jmz
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Joshua Zeidner<jjzeidner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Alan,
>>>>
>>>> Wish I had time to respond to all these points right now, not sure
>>>> you read me the way I would prefer however. Its not so grave a
>>>> warning, just getting the word out on my first hand experiences. Im
>>>> just one of many- but hopefully an impartial observer and someone
>>>> genuinely concerned for AZ.
>>>>
>>>> all the best, jmz
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Alan Dayley<alandd@consultpros.com> wrote:
>>>>> Josh,
>>>>>
>>>>> I feel warned. And I don't understand the reason for such a strong warning.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are people in every industry, government or community who wish
>>>>> to fleece their "community" for their own profit instead of mutual
>>>>> benefit. The trick is to find the positive people and ignore the
>>>>> rest. Apply the same filter with every event, group or blogger in the
>>>>> lists and links I provided. I don't expect bloggers or techies to be
>>>>> any different, as if being techie makes one a saint.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some of those bloggers are purely commercial or completely neglected,
>>>>> I'm sure. Some of the groups or events or sites listed are lousy,
>>>>> boring or poor marketing excuses to sell something. Some are not out
>>>>> to create community but to build a "kingdom" for their own benefit.
>>>>> They are the duds.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's look at a few positives:
>>>>>
>>>>> - Read the Gangplank Manifesto on their home page at
>>>>> http://gangplankhq.com. That looks like a great articulation of their
>>>>> goals and purpose. Ones I strongly support!
>>>>> -- Read how the manifesto came to be on Derek's blog at
>>>>> http://derekneighbors.com/2009/07/collaborative-writing-or-how-the-gangplank-manifesto-was-written/
>>>>>
>>>>> - Gangplank has hosted or is hosting:
>>>>> -- MobiFest - a day long conference on developing for phones like
>>>>> iPhone or Android
>>>>> -- Gangplank Jr. - a 2-3 hour Saturday event for kids 5-15 to learn
>>>>> programming concepts
>>>>> -- Wordpress training classes for minimal cost or no-cost for non-profit orgs
>>>>> -- Laid Off Camp - a day long conference on job searching and entreprenuership
>>>>> -- Barcamp Pheonix - a day long conference on software development
>>>>> -- TEDx night - Watch ted.com videos and discuss them
>>>>> -- OpenPhoenix - a night of open mic music and entertainment
>>>>>
>>>>> - The last http://desertcodecamp.com/ was held on June 13th and nearly
>>>>> filled DeVry's Phoenix campus with developers talking about code or
>>>>> making code. Free lunch of pizza and sub sandwiches was provided too.
>>>>> Put together by volunteers.
>>>>>
>>>>> - If you're into Microsoft based development tech, the people who
>>>>> maintain the http://azgroups.com site do an annual all-day event at
>>>>> venues like the Orphium Theater and at no cost to attendees. Fine,
>>>>> it's marketing for MS but it's put on by volunteers here in the valley
>>>>> and a great way for people to learn about things that improve their
>>>>> career skills.
>>>>> (http://www.componentart.com/BLOGS/milos/archive/2009/06/02/scott-guthrie-event-2009-phoenix-az.aspx)
>>>>>
>>>>> - The local Ruby On Rails group has monthly meetings with around 30
>>>>> regularly in attendance.
>>>>>
>>>>> - The Java group is also well attended every month.
>>>>>
>>>>> - The third http://podcampaz.com/ is coming up in November, put on by
>>>>> voluteers at no cost (donation requested) to attendees. Had about 350
>>>>> people attend last year (if I recall) for two days of conference.
>>>>>
>>>>> - The http://azentrepreneurship.com/ conference will be in November
>>>>> for the forth year. This one costs $100+ but should be as well
>>>>> attended as last year with 200+ people. Funded and organized in part
>>>>> by a local venture capital group.
>>>>>
>>>>> - The first http://ignitephoenix.com event was held a year ago with a
>>>>> little over 100 in attendance and has grown to fill the 600 seat
>>>>> Theather at Tempe Center for the Arts back in June. The connections
>>>>> made there live well past the event.
>>>>> -- Oh, a city council member and the mayor of Tempe spoke this last
>>>>> time, though he was a bit silly trying to be Tempe exclusive. That
>>>>> seems to be at least verbal political support.
>>>>>
>>>>> - The second ABLEConf on FS/OSS is being planned for October and
>>>>> should be better than last year. (Go Hans and team!)
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not going to go on, though I could point out several purely social
>>>>> events like http://phoenixfridaynights.com/, it's east and west valley
>>>>> analogs, East Valley Thursday Morning breakfasts, Tempe Geeks Lunch,
>>>>> South Valley Geek Meet and Eat and Gangplank's Brown Gag lunch
>>>>> presentations every Wednesday.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, having said all of that "giddy blind optimism," I'd like to
>>>>> understand how the above does not address the efforts of the past or
>>>>> provide improvement over past efforts. What are the real needs of the
>>>>> community, if not some of the above? What would you suggest? How can
>>>>> PLUG be a part of it?
>>>>>
>>>>> Alan
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 1:34 PM, Joshua Zeidner<jjzeidner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Alan,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> while I appreciate your post, and anyone who is making a sincere
>>>>>> effort to build community in Phoenix... be warned. There are some
>>>>>> small groups who periodically spawn off new 'communities' every month
>>>>>> or so. Look closely and you see the same few people with reused
>>>>>> marketing recipes. Lots of blog and not too much community I'm
>>>>>> afraid. Their efforts amount to some simple branding and putting up a
>>>>>> blog. While these things are not really particularily offensive to
>>>>>> me, they do somewhat detract from interest in the real needs of the
>>>>>> community here. Some of these people are just outright idiotic and
>>>>>> cannot deal with existing structure and refuse to accept the history
>>>>>> of efforts in the past. They lack any articulation of their goals and
>>>>>> purpose. Often times they have trouble organizing even small groups
>>>>>> of 2 or 3. Dont forget we've had a tech incubator here. Lets not
>>>>>> smack down sincere criticism in favor of giddy blind optimism,
>>>>>> remember you can't improve without criticism. I would take these
>>>>>> people much more seriously if they addressed the efforts of the past
>>>>>> and perhaps suggested how they are going to improve on them, or
>>>>>> perhaps indicate what has changed that will make them a success.
>>>>>> Maybe seeking real political support would gain some legitimacy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> on the positive side, I think Phoenix will attract a lot of
>>>>>> technology business due to its relative low cost and no doubt you will
>>>>>> start to see community infrastructure grow. We are seeing some real
>>>>>> urban development happening in Phx metro which has me very excited. I
>>>>>> think when the macroeconomic problems are sorted out we will see
>>>>>> downtown Phx bloom. Im hoping that the average Arizonan gets involved
>>>>>> in the political process and make sure that the corruption stays out
>>>>>> of city and state politics. Coming from NY, Im recognizing a lot of
>>>>>> positive development trends in Phx metro.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -jmz
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>>>>
>>>
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