Re: OT: Survelliance in America

Correct = choose your country - every thing that made America great went away, moving might be the best option to living in a sham democracy. 

Serfdom, feifdom, freedom - don't trust anything with a dom on the end?

Who can even say what really happened on 9/11, the corruption is soo deep and complete?

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--- On Sat, 6/28/08, Joshua Zeidner <jjzeidner@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Joshua Zeidner <jjzeidner@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Survelliance in America
To: "Main PLUG discussion list" <plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 6:05 PM

The greatest travesty in my opinion is that we have already worked
through the problems that Craig cites, that is why FISA was created in
the first place! Allowing our intelligence agencies free and
unrestricted access to such information gives far too much privilege
to a small group.

The fact that this bill makes it legal to break the law (a very
important law) shows how utterly degraded our justice system has
become. Given this legislation has become law, we can no longer
assume that any law on the books that is designed to protect us is
even valid, because apparently any law may be broken and its violators
may be 'retroactively immunized'. And the fact that politicians who
reportedly represent us are supporting it, show how totally useless
our legislative system is. What the next progression is for America
is anyones guess.

All in the name of 'safety'. Safety from what precisely?

-jmz


On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 4:20 PM, Craig White <craigwhite@azapple.com>
wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-06-28 at 15:58 -0700, Jason Spatafore wrote:
>> We shouldn't be as worried about being monitored as we should be
worried
>> about admission of the monitored activities in a court of law.
>>
>> I think it should be fine to be monitored on the Internet, just like
you
>> shouldn't have a "reasonable expectation of privacy"
when walking down
>> the street. The Internet is essentially a publicly monitored, yet
>> private roadway. Anything going over the wires can and should be
>> permitted to be monitored. When you pay a toll for a toll road, do you
>> expect no cameras to be there because you paid to be on that road? The
>> Internet is the same.
>>
>> However, I do not believe that such monitoring should be allowed in a
>> court of law as "evidence" or that such monitoring should be
permitted
>> as "public information".
>>
>> What I mean here is that I think it should be illegal for a person to
>> post a picture passed via email (or the email itself) onto a newsgroup
>> or forum and mark it as "public information". Such an act
should be
>> considered illegal by some type of law, whether it's slander or
some
>> other already established law.
>>
>> I also don't believe that such monitoring should be permitted to
obtain
>> a warrant to monitor nor should it be admissible as evidence. It
>> shouldn't be illegal to *listen*, but it should be illegal to
"repeat"
>> or take action based off the information (much like insider trading
>> laws). If I spy on my neighbor by packet sniffing his router, that
>> should not be illegal. However, whatever I *do* with the information I
>> obtained should be punishable by law. The same standards should be
held
>> to the government.
>>
>> Yes, you should be able to listen. No, you cannot do anything with
what
>> you've heard.
>>
>> Of course, you can take it one step further and ask: "Should the
>> government be permitted to hack into your computer and watch you on
the
>> webcam connected to the PC?"
>>
>> That's where I would say "No". The difference is because
they are
>> opening the door, not you. When you go online (physically take action
>> to surf the net or send email), you are opening the door and stepping
>> out into the street. When your computer is just connected to the
>> Internet, then you are not out in the street...your door is closed and
>> your expectation of privacy should be protected. (Locking your door is
>> not an argument...you shouldn't have to lock your door to expect
>> privacy....you should only have to close it.)
> ----
> There are multiple issues here. The one that seemed absolutely clear cut
> was the issue of immunity for the telecoms because that prevents any
> disclosure about what was done which seems to have been conducted
> without legal authority. There are numerous trials in process that would
> force the disclosure of what has been done on whose authority and this
> is too important to allow it to be secreted away forever.
>
> To actually discuss the current FISA legislation without weighing in on
> the topic of retroactive immunity for the telecoms is a signal that you
> don't have a clue what the topic of discussion actually is.
>
> The other issue is that this particular administration has proven that
> government is not to be trusted because they taken overly broad claims
> of secrecy needs to prevent disclosure - to the point where they are
> actually trying to conduct trials against accused persons without having
> to disclose their evidence because of secrecy claims.
>
> The erosion of public trust and the guarantees contained in the Bill of
> Rights is sickening and should send a chill through all Americans. What
> we have done in response to an isolated terrorist action on our soil is
> nothing short of completely stupid.
>
> Government uses fear against the people and we succeed when we have
> transparency, not secrecy.
>
> I cringe at the thought that the bulk of the citizens in the US don't
> get this.
>
> Craig
>
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