Joseph Sinclair wrote:
> Jeff Garland wrote:
>> Joseph Sinclair wrote:
>>> der.hans wrote:
> I wasn't starting a "religious war" on which technology is "best". After over
> 20 years writing software, I am firmly convinced there is no such beast; every
> platform has it's own strengths and weaknesses.
I don't want to start a war either. After about the same amount of time in the
industry I agree there's no such thing as best. But, overall, I don't like
being locked in or tied to the fate of any given company -- that's all. And I
felt like someone needed to point out that, in fact, MS had submitted to a
standard body unlike Sun. You can argue that Sun has opened up, but I just
don't agree.
> I only contend that Java has a legitimate place in the toolkit of FLOSS development,
> and the specifications are, as of this writing, open enough to satisfy the criteria
> for software freedom. RMS and GNU seem to agree, given that RMS has stated that he
> has no problem with Java provided the GNU JVM (or any other GPL'd JVM) is used(at
> least in testing) to ensure that people can successfully run your Java-based system
> without using non-free software (with the latest release of GNU classpath the majority
> of Java software can be made to work on GIJ, BTW).
>
> You may disagree on how "open" Java is, that's certainly open to reasonable debate.
> I contend, however that Sun doesn't have ownership of the current Java specifications,
> and the covenants I've seen for the JCP members(including Sun) do a pretty good job of
> ensuring, legally, that Sun(or anyone else) cannot do what you envision. BTW, Sun
> absolutely does not have the "final" say in the JCP; they gave up their veto power
> with JCP 2.0 in 2002 and now only have one vote on each EC, just like any other EC
> member. Sun's recent public statements and official corporate actions certainly
> support my view that they won't do anything harmful in the foreseeable future.
I'm sure JCP can and will be revoked if/when Sun needs to. I agree, it seems
like a small risk, but I've seen nothing that convinces me they don't have the
ultimate control. And again, Sun is ripe to be absorbed by some other company....
> ECMA is well known as the "rubberstamp" standards body, C# is encumbered by enough
> patents that MS can do anything they want with it (including barring it's implementation
> in free software), that's why MS uses ECMA for all of the "standards" they push (note
> the "open" XML document "standard" they're currently trying to push through), ECMA allows
> companies to give their horribly encumbered and completely proprietary designs the
> imprimatur of a "standard" without any real openness.
Ok, well it's still incorrect to say that MS hasn't tried to standardize
anything -- Sun didn't even get the ECMA rubberstamp. You didn't say it,
der.hans did.
> As for C and C++, I've used both for a couple decades now, and while they work well for
> many systems, trying to write modern web-based systems in either language is an exercise
> in futility.
It isn't any harder than in any other language, frankly. It's the lack of web
development libraries and for these languages that make them less attractive.
Nothing else of substance. Now, there's a lack of commercial money behind
these languages because unlike Sun and MS no-one can make enough return on
them to justify their development. Plus they want to lock you into their
development system.
> Using either is appropriate in the relatively few areas where they are best
> suited to the task (embedded systems, O/S code, core infrastructure systems, etc...), but
> for a wide array of business software, and especially for web-based systems, various
> combinations of other platforms(i.e. Java, Ruby, Python, Perl, PHP, XSLT, etc...) provide
So far we hadn't discussed Ruby, Python, Perl, PHP, or XSLT -- all of which
are fine by me b/c they are unencumbered by a single corporate interest.
> better results. As with any technology decision the choice of which languages and/or platforms
> to use should be driven by the needs of the specific project,
> not personal preference.
I agree. I have no problem with projects using Java or C#...it's their choice
to take the risk I'm pointing out. They may not see it as a risk...I do.
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------
PLUG-discuss mailing list -
PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change you mail settings:
http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
(text/plain)