Snip:
"Because if you actually understood
the issues, it is precisely because it is open source and that is why
they are installing Linux."
Nope. That's not why this "newbie" has been fooling around w/Linux. =
I'm also a newbie to CP/M-80, OS2 and OS2/Warp. I've run Windows 3.XX, =
95, 98, and now XP. I still have the first version of Linux I bought, =
(Redhat, 2 discs of The Complete Linux Operating System, version 4.2). =
I use the jewel box to block the lens on my webcam.
I was just curious about different operating systems. I don't owe any =
allegiance to anyone, I simply tried SuSE 8.1 Pro because I read =
somewhere it was painless to install. And it was. It was a first for =
me with regard to Linux, and I was tickled to be able to actually fiddle =
with the eye candy on the desktop, have a look at the command line, and =
whatever else I've messed around with and forgotten about. And yes, =
that's how I found PLUG. And here on this list is where I've learned =
more simply by listening. Open Source? FSF? These were terms I had =
never heard, much less understood. That came later. First and =
foremost, my interest had to be held by the damn distro coming up and =
running.
I want to thank everyone on this list for their effort to help those =
that request it. That's another reason why Linux still interests me. =
Testosterone and spelling aside, I'm impressed. Thanx again.
Frank Davenport
=20
=20
=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Craig White" <
craigwhite@azapple.com>
To: <
plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 6:37 AM
Subject: Re: YMMV, but MY Linux desktop stinks
> On Thu, 2004-01-08 at 12:47, Chris Gehlker wrote:
> > On Jan 8, 2004, at 11:12 AM, Craig White wrote:
> >=20
> > > On Thu, 2004-01-08 at 10:37, Chris Gehlker wrote:
> > >> On Jan 8, 2004, at 9:25 AM, Craig White wrote:
> > >> I thought Karl's original post was clearly made with the intent =
to be
> > >> helpful. You keep trying to beat him up. Why is that? Did he =
shoot=20
> > >> your
> > >> dog?
> > >>
> > > ---
> > > There were two opinions - Richard who wants to tell users to use =
SuSE,
> > > Karl thinks Mandrake is the answer. I responded to both. I know I=20
> > > didn't
> > > say anything to 'beat him up'. Try my distro is nothing but a shot =
in
> > > the dark.
> >=20
> > Maybe it was Richard. In any case, IIRC you speculated that if the=20
> > original person did adopt his distro and later got into trouble, he=20
> > would refuse to help. You also took him to task for not posting =
helpful=20
> > messages in the past. I agree that you are one of the leaders here =
in=20
> > posting helpful messages. That doesn't mean that others aren't =
trying=20
> > to be helpful to the extent of their knowledge.
> ----
> I never suggested that he would refuse to help. I pointed out that 'it
> appears' that the numbers on this list support Debian, the most,
> followed in descending order to Red Hat, Mandrake and SuSE. I don't =
see
> much discussion of SuSE. Since SuSE uses a proprietary package for
> system administration (YAST), the frame of reference for newbie Linux
> users posting setup questions to this list isn't there for most of us.
> Obviously this plays the other way with Richard since he is most
> familiar with SuSE and YAST, his system toolset doesn't translate to
> other Linux distro's.
> ----
> > > Richard's idea of maintenance is Windows/Macintosh centric which =
is to
> > > point and click it through and not have to dirty his mind via the
> > > command line. It's clear why he prefers SuSE (YAST).
> >=20
> > I think that characterizes both Richard and the original poster. =
It's a=20
> > valid preference. Just because we don't feel that way doesn't that =
it's=20
> > not OK for others to feel differently.
> ----
> I suppose that the insinuation in my comment is clear. The truth of =
the
> matter is that much of the system administration can be handled on
> virtually any Linux or BSD distro with webmin - much like SuSE's YAST. =
>=20
> The dark, dirty secret of Linux is that like UNIX, the GUI tools
> distance the administrator (which on a home machine is also the user)
> from understanding what is actually happening and what steps he can do
> to fix his problems.=20
>=20
> For example, let's say that you want to change the name of a computer =
in
> Linux - or for that matter Windows 2000. I would no more want to fire =
up
> YAST or in Red Hat - neat (network hardware administrator) that go to
> the periodontist. From cli it takes me all of 20 seconds to edit
> /etc/sysconfig/network and restart the network daemon. If I am =
uncertain
> of what I am doing, I can cp /etc/syconfig/network
> /etc/sysconfig/network.orig and have a backup before I edit. If I =
goof,
> I can put the original back easily. This process extends itself easily
> with all configuration files, they are simply text and I can even
> comment the lines to myself. No hunting down
> HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE_\SYSTEM\CURRENT_CONTROL_SET\WINDOWS\NETWORK in the
> registry.
>=20
> So when it comes to helping others, I don't need to visualize YAST. If =
I
> can have them locate the file, they can edit, restart necessary =
daemons
> and move on.
> ----
> > > In both cases, there is somewhat of a reliance upon 'plug and =
pray' -
> > > hopefully there is enough proprietary drivers packaged inside the=20
> > > distro
> > > and sufficient auto-detection of the hardware for stuff to just =
work.=20
> > > If
> > > so, it may very well be a good choice. If not, then we have a =
problem.
> >=20
> > Exactly. Trying a different distro *may* provide a very easy =
solution=20
> > to the problem. It costs little to perform the experiment. Both =
Richard=20
> > and Karl reported that this approach had worked for them. What's =
wrong=20
> > with them reporting that?
> ----
> Here's one thing that's wrong with that. Newbie gets distro packaged =
in
> book about Linux and installs it. Stumbles upon PLUG and says hey, I =
got
> this older version of Linux in a book and can't get something to work
> and asks for help. Answer, wipe it out and install this, it works
> better. So now he has invested more time getting nowhere and it maybe
> solves original problem, introduces a new problem and doesn't track =
with
> the book that he has.
>=20
> Perhaps he wanted to get familiar with Red Hat to prepare for using
> Oracle and now, he has switched to SuSE because his nVidia card didn't
> give him the depth or resolutions that he was looking for. Did we =
really
> do this person a favor by switching him?
> ----
> > I happen to agree that blindly trying different distros is not the=20
> > optimum way to proceed. It just struck me as curious that your tone =
to=20
> > Richard and Karl was harsher than your tone to the original troll.
> ----
> tone is subjective - I'm avoiding the characterizations but you cannot
> miss the base construct that I've been trying to make - that try my
> distro is only the answer sometimes. It is like going to the doctor =
and
> getting symptomatic treatment and not ever dealing with the root cause
> of the problem in the first place. It allows the doctor to spend 5
> minutes with the patient, write a prescription and bill the insurance
> company.=20
>=20
> OK Linux newbie...You want help getting Linux to work with your nVidia
> card...get SuSE, it has more nVidia drivers built-in. Surely a whole =
lot
> easier than telling the newbie how to download and install the =
drivers.
> Surely a whole lot easier than telling the newbie that the reason =
those
> drivers aren't included is because they aren't open source. Why bother =
a
> newbie with the details of open source or non-open source when all =
they
> want is for the stuff to work? Why? Because if you actually understood
> the issues, it is precisely because it is open source and that is why
> they are installing Linux.=20
>=20
> Craig
>=20
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