Interesting MS Comments

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Author: Vaughn Treude
Date:  
Subject: Interesting MS Comments
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I think you've hit the nail on the head about one of the most likely ways for MS and others to attack open source. They can't prohibit
it outright, just like they can't directly prohibit free speech or guns in our great country. But Linux could conceivably be used as a
tool to violate the Digital Millenium Copyright Act (or whatever that outrage is called) and they could try to outlaw open-source code
for drivers for these kinds of devices.

Besides that, a lot of Linux people have also been involved in the smuggling of encryption, oops I mean "munitions", over national
borders. So they'll have to find some way to prevent PGP from running in Windows, probably refusing to issue some sort of "approval
certificate" that will be required for Windows apps in the future. The government could require Linux distros to incorporate a similar
scheme, just like automakers are required to put in airbags whether the customers want them or not.

Those are just two examples of "threats" that could justify government intervention in open source code. Restrict the right to use
open source in too many areas, and Linux will end up as a swiss cheese system riddled with buggy and unmodifiable proprietary code.
They've been pursuing a similar tactic with private gun ownership-- create SO many regulations, prohibitions and conditions for
ownership and use of a weapon, that even if you're not an ex-felon, you can't legally use it to protect yourself in 99% of the
situations where you'd really need it. (And these days, most felonies are not even violent crimes.) But I digress. You may not agree
with my pro-gun enthusiasm, but I think the metaphor is a good one. We shouldn't be paranoid-- but we must be eternally vigilant.

Vaughn Treude


Todd Hought wrote:

> Here's the scary part, every one of US sees that this is just a bunch of
> malarkey, but Joe Consumer doesn't. Regular people are easily influenced by
> what they read and see, and most people out there would see something like
> this and think "Those Open Source people really ARE undermining those nice
> people who built my Windows...." All it would take, is one powerful, idiot
> congressperson, to put a bug like this into the system, and it just COULD be
> illegal to write free software, let's face it, we're not being shown in a
> good light after that MPAA fiasco, and it isn't even over yet.
>
> Somebody on /. posted a good comment about an open letter to every single
> representative, written by every one of us (read: the open source community),
> included with say, a full copy of the Debian Distro (all 10+ CD's) and a copy
> of every other distro, even the teeny tiny ones, just so that people in power
> would get a clearer picture of what innovation people like us have created
> for the world they live in. I'm all for it, let's get 'em!
>
> -Todd
>
> On Friday 16 February 2001 11:24, you wrote:
> > My thoughts exactly, Trent.
> >
> > Also, who else has more money, power, and influence to mount a legal
> > attack against GPL/LGPL/ect. If they can poke holes in the legal
> > protections guaranteed by the Open Source licenses, the end is near.
> >
> > On Friday 16 February 2001 11:13, you wrote:
> > > Hardly clueless, but obviously scared.
> > >
> > > MS is signaling the start of a *major* disinformation campaign. OS
> > > market share is obviously partly in play, but arguing open source is
> > > anti-competitive would indicate Microsoft is making a strategic move.
> > >
> > > Maybe they want to eliminate GNU or Java style licenses. Also, much
> > > open source software seems to be developed by quasi-cartels. An IBM -
> > > SUN cartel disguised as an open source collaboration should frighten
> > > Microsoft.
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From:
> > > > [mailto:plug-discuss-admin@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us]On Behalf Of
> > > > Deepak Saxena
> > > > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 10:21 AM
> > > > To:
> > > > Subject: Re: Interesting MS Comments
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > It shows how clueless and scared Microsoft is about open source at the
> > > > moment.
> > > >
> > > > ~Deepak
> > > >
> > > > On Feb 16 2001, at 09:12, Lucas Vogel was caught saying:
> > > > > Not only was this posted on Slashdot yesterday, but it had over
> > > >
> > > > 1300 or so
> > > >
> > > > > comments posted to it.
> > > > >
> > > > > It's a good insight to the views some of the MS executives have on
> > > > > open source, but I really don't think it has any teeth - even if MS
> > > > > does.
> > > > >
> > > > > IMHO,
> > > > >
> > > > > Lucas
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ===========================
> > > > > Lucas Vogel
> > > > > Exponent, Inc.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 623-587-6739    work
> > > > > 623-587-4191    fax
> > > > > ===========================
> > > > > http://www.exponent.com

> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Jeffrey Pyne [mailto:jpyne@worldatwork.org]
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 10:03 AM
> > > > > > To:
> > > > > > Subject: Interesting MS Comments
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I saw a link to this article on another list and found it amusing:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?T=marketsquote99_news.ht&
> > > > > > s=AOospdBaQTWl
> > > > > > jcm9z
> > > > > >
> > > > > > (If it hasn't already been posted to Slashdot, I'm sure it will
> > > > > > soon.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A couple excerpts:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Microsoft Corp.'s Windows operating-system chief, Jim
> > > > > > Allchin, says that
> > > > > > freely distributed software code such as rival Linux could
> > > > > > stifle innovation
> > > > > > and that legislators need to understand the threat."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -and-
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "I'm an American, I believe in the American Way," he said. "I
> > > > > > worry if the
> > > > > > government encourages open source, and I don't think we've done
> > > > > > enough education of policy makers to understand the threat."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well heck afire! I didn't realize that Linux was UNAMERICAN. I
> > > > > > am unsubscribing from this list immediately, and when I get home I
> > > > > > am going to
> > > > > > blow away my Slackware 7.1 installation (evil, evil!) and
> > > > > > install Windows
> > > > > > 2000. (To do so I'll just need to stop by Fry's on the way
> > > > > > home to pick up
> > > > > > and extra 256Mb of RAM-- good thing it's on sale for $44.95.)
> > > > > > I'm just glad
> > > > > > Mr. Allchin warned us all before it was too late....
> > > > > >
> > > > > > :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ~Jeff
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________________________
> > > > > > See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your
> > > > > > mail doesn't post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to
> > > > > > write mail.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Plug-discuss mailing list -
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________________________
> > > > > See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail
> > > >
> > > > doesn't post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail.
> > > >
> > > > > Plug-discuss mailing list -
> > > > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Deepak Saxena - - phone://602.790.0500
> > > >
> > > > call me 'evil' call me 'tide is on your side' anything that you want
> > > > anybody knows you can conjure anything by the dark of the moon
> > > > - Tori Amos, "Suede"
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________________________
> > > > See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail
> > > > doesn't post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail.
> > > >
> > > > Plug-discuss mailing list -
> > > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> > >
> > > ________________________________________________
> > > See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail doesn't
> > > post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail.
> > >
> > > Plug-discuss mailing list -
> > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
> ________________________________________________
> See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail doesn't post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail.
>
> Plug-discuss mailing list -
> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss

--
*****************
Nakota Software, Inc.
Custom Industrial Software Development



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I think you've hit the nail on the head about one of the most likely ways
for MS&nbsp;and others to attack open source.&nbsp; They can't prohibit
it outright, just like they can't directly prohibit free speech or guns
in our great country.&nbsp; But Linux could conceivably be used as a tool
to violate the Digital Millenium Copyright Act (or whatever that outrage
is called) and they could try to outlaw open-source code for drivers for
these kinds of devices.
<p>Besides that, a lot of Linux people have also been involved in the smuggling
of encryption, oops I mean "munitions", over national borders.&nbsp; So
they'll have to find some way to prevent PGP from running in Windows, probably
refusing to issue some sort of "approval certificate" that will be required
for Windows apps in the future.&nbsp; The government could require Linux
distros to incorporate a similar scheme, just like automakers are required
to put in airbags whether the customers want them or not.
<p>Those are just two examples of "threats" that could justify government
intervention in open source code.&nbsp; Restrict the right to use open
source in too many areas, and Linux will end up as a swiss cheese system
riddled with buggy and unmodifiable proprietary code.&nbsp; They've been
pursuing a similar tactic with private gun ownership-- create SO&nbsp;many
regulations, prohibitions and conditions for ownership and use of a weapon,
that even if you're not an ex-felon, you can't legally use it to protect
yourself in 99% of the situations where you'd really need it.&nbsp; (And
these days, most felonies are not even violent crimes.)&nbsp; But I digress.&nbsp;
You may not agree with my pro-gun enthusiasm, but I&nbsp;think the metaphor
is a good one.&nbsp;&nbsp; We shouldn't be paranoid-- but we must be eternally
vigilant.
<p>Vaughn Treude
<br>&nbsp;
<p>Todd Hought wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Here's the scary part, every one of US sees that
this is just a bunch of
<br>malarkey, but Joe Consumer doesn't. Regular people are easily influenced
by
<br>what they read and see, and most people out there would see something
like
<br>this and think "Those Open Source people really ARE undermining those
nice
<br>people who built my Windows...." All it would take, is one powerful,
idiot
<br>congressperson, to put a bug like this into the system, and it just
COULD be
<br>illegal to write free software, let's face it, we're not being shown
in a
<br>good light after that MPAA fiasco, and it isn't even over yet.
<p>Somebody on /. posted a good comment about an open letter to every single
<br>representative, written by every one of us (read: the open source community),
<br>included with say, a full copy of the Debian Distro (all 10+ CD's)
and a copy
<br>of every other distro, even the teeny tiny ones, just so that people
in power
<br>would get a clearer picture of what innovation people like us have
created
<br>for the world they live in. I'm all for it, let's get 'em!
<p>-Todd
<p>On Friday 16 February 2001 11:24, you wrote:
<br>> My thoughts exactly, Trent.
<br>>
<br>> Also, who else has more money, power, and influence to mount a legal
<br>> attack against GPL/LGPL/ect.&nbsp; If they can poke holes in the
legal
<br>> protections guaranteed by the Open Source licenses, the end is near.
<br>>
<br>> On Friday 16 February 2001 11:13, you wrote:
<br>> > Hardly clueless, but obviously scared.
<br>> >
<br>> > MS is signaling the start of a *major* disinformation campaign.&nbsp;
OS
<br>> > market share is obviously partly in play, but arguing open source
is
<br>> > anti-competitive would indicate Microsoft is making a strategic
move.
<br>> >
<br>> > Maybe they want to eliminate GNU or Java style licenses.&nbsp;
Also, much
<br>> > open source software seems to be developed by quasi-cartels.&nbsp;
An IBM -
<br>> > SUN cartel disguised as an open source collaboration should frighten
<br>> > Microsoft.
<br>> >
<br>> > > -----Original Message-----
<br>> > > From:
<br>> > > [<a href="mailto:plug-discuss-admin@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us">mailto:plug-discuss-admin@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us</a>]On
Behalf Of
<br>> > > Deepak Saxena
<br>> > > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 10:21 AM
<br>> > > To:
<br>> > > Subject: Re: Interesting MS Comments
<br>> > >
<br>> > >
<br>> > >
<br>> > > It shows how clueless and scared Microsoft is about open source
at the
<br>> > > moment.
<br>> > >
<br>> > > ~Deepak
<br>> > >
<br>> > > On Feb 16 2001, at 09:12, Lucas Vogel was caught saying:
<br>> > > > Not only was this posted on Slashdot yesterday, but it had
over
<br>> > >
<br>> > > 1300 or so
<br>> > >
<br>> > > > comments posted to it.
<br>> > > >
<br>> > > > It's a good insight to the views some of the MS executives
have on
<br>> > > > open source, but I really don't think it has any teeth - even
if MS
<br>> > > > does.
<br>> > > >
<br>> > > > IMHO,
<br>> > > >
<br>> > > > Lucas
<br>> > > >
<br>> > > >
<br>> > > > ===========================
<br>> > > > Lucas Vogel
<br>> > > > Exponent, Inc.
<br>> > > >
<br>> > > > 623-587-6739&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; work
<br>> > > > 623-587-4191&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; fax
<br>> > > > ===========================
<br>> > > > <a href="http://www.exponent.com">http://www.exponent.com</a>
<br>> > > >
<br>> > > > > -----Original Message-----
<br>> > > > > From: Jeffrey Pyne [<a href="mailto:jpyne@worldatwork.org">mailto:jpyne@worldatwork.org</a>]
<br>> > > > > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 10:03 AM
<br>> > > > > To:
<br>> > > > > Subject: Interesting MS Comments
<br>> > > > >
<br>> > > > >
<br>> > > > > I saw a link to this article on another list and found it
amusing:
<br>> > > > >
<br>> > > > > <a href="http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?T=marketsquote99_news.ht&">http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?T=marketsquote99_news.ht&amp;</a>
<br>> > > > > s=AOospdBaQTWl
<br>> > > > > jcm9z
<br>> > > > >
<br>> > > > > (If it hasn't already been posted to Slashdot, I'm sure it
will
<br>> > > > > soon.)
<br>> > > > >
<br>> > > > > A couple excerpts:
<br>> > > > >
<br>> > > > > "Microsoft Corp.'s Windows operating-system chief, Jim
<br>> > > > > Allchin, says that
<br>> > > > > freely distributed software code such as rival Linux could
<br>> > > > > stifle innovation
<br>> > > > > and that legislators need to understand the threat."
<br>> > > > >
<br>> > > > >&nbsp;&nbsp; -and-
<br>> > > > >
<br>> > > > > "I'm an American, I believe in the American Way," he said.
"I
<br>> > > > > worry if the
<br>> > > > > government encourages open source, and I don't think we've
done
<br>> > > > > enough education of policy makers to understand the threat."
<br>> > > > >
<br>> > > > > Well heck afire!&nbsp; I didn't realize that Linux was UNAMERICAN.&nbsp;
I
<br>> > > > > am unsubscribing from this list immediately, and when I get
home I
<br>> > > > > am going to
<br>> > > > > blow away my Slackware 7.1 installation (evil, evil!) and
<br>> > > > > install Windows
<br>> > > > > 2000.&nbsp; (To do so I'll just need to stop by Fry's on
the way
<br>> > > > > home to pick up
<br>> > > > > and extra 256Mb of RAM-- good thing it's on sale for $44.95.)
<br>> > > > >&nbsp; I'm just glad
<br>> > > > > Mr. Allchin warned us all before it was too late....
<br>> > > > >
<br>> > > > > :)
<br>> > > > >
<br>> > > > > ~Jeff
<br>> > > > >
<br>> > > > > ________________________________________________
<br>> > > > > See <a href="http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml">http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml</a>
if your
<br>> > > > > mail doesn't post to the list quickly and you use Netscape
to
<br>> > > > > write mail.
<br>> > > > >
<br>> > > > > Plug-discuss mailing list&nbsp; -
<br>> > > > >
<br>> > > > > <a href="http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss">http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss</a>
<br>> > > >
<br>> > > > ________________________________________________
<br>> > > > See <a href="http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml">http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml</a>
if your mail
<br>> > >
<br>> > > doesn't post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write
mail.
<br>> > >
<br>> > > > Plug-discuss mailing list&nbsp; -&nbsp;
<br>> > > > <a href="http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss">http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss</a>
<br>> > >
<br>> > > --
<br>> > > Deepak Saxena - - phone://602.790.0500
<br>> > >
<br>> > > call me 'evil' call me 'tide is on your side' anything that you
want
<br>> > > anybody knows you can conjure anything by the dark of the moon
<br>> > >&nbsp;&nbsp; - Tori Amos, "Suede"
<br>> > >
<br>> > > ________________________________________________
<br>> > > See <a href="http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml">http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml</a>
if your mail
<br>> > > doesn't post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write
mail.
<br>> > >
<br>> > > Plug-discuss mailing list&nbsp; -&nbsp;
<br>> > > <a href="http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss">http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss</a>
<br>> >
<br>> > ________________________________________________
<br>> > See <a href="http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml">http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml</a>
if your mail doesn't
<br>> > post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail.
<br>> >
<br>> > Plug-discuss mailing list&nbsp; -&nbsp;
<br>> > <a href="http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss">http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss</a>
<p>________________________________________________
<br>See <a href="http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml">http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml</a>
if your mail doesn't post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write
mail.
<p>Plug-discuss mailing list&nbsp; -&nbsp;
<br><a href="http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss">http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss</a></blockquote>

<pre>--&nbsp;
*****************
Nakota Software, Inc.
Custom Industrial Software Development</pre>
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