Why is PHP not a "real" language?

Sun Aug 28 02:23:49 MST 2022

Just my take on it, someone who used PHP very heavily from 2015 to 2018 and
transfered to Go.  My views maybe dated at this point...

It has its place in the ecosystem, there is no way around it, but it's
always going to be that language for engineering websites, that's it. It
was mostly considered bloated and not really seen as good as using Python
in Unix environments. Python does package management right, and you can go
far beyond that if you wanted which makes it a amazing tool and it's
usually pre-installed.

As someone who develops API code using Go as a daily, I haven't looked back
at PHP since. GO does so many things right in comparison to PHP. It makes
writting APIs a snap and infrastructures are much simpler and you can ship
binaries! But for rendering websites, it has its weaknesses and heavily
depends on template engines if you aren't writting a single web page
application. This is maybe when you depend on PHP, but front-ends like
React and Angular have came so far that having to mix front-end and backend
code shouldn't be necessary these days.

Small Rant: I basically came to terms that no one language is always the
answer to everything and the circle jerks of languages is just a waste of
time, imho. Use what you love, if you like it and it works and can scale to
demand, good for you! But never also find yourself stuck in a echo chamber,
learn some Erlang, Rust. See what else is out there. Heck you could find
out your a Ruby developer at the end of the day.

On Sun, Aug 28, 2022, 1:09 AM David Schwartz via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> My opinion might not count for much since I don’t really program with PHP,
> although I spent about a year with V4 in 2000. I do enjoy looking at the
> language updates and seeing what small steps the PHP language Gods take
> each time it’s updated. In contrast to C++, PHP seems to be evolving at a
> snail’s pace.
>
> The issues about interpreted (aka, “scripting”) languages is bogus. Python
> is now the #1 most popular programming language in the world, and it’s
> interpreted. So there goes that theory.
>
> https://skilldeck.org/learning/best-programming-language-to-learn
> <https://u2206659.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=SJEG7TF39YLaAIMD0HhsfJVUp5k4FPRQWFpjhE34mwwmabVu4BgQFRZ5Xq2IUprGzUTK3y1lVUwk6pWsIx2TMhl19zUBjc-2FtfGZ5-2Bt75qno-3DK04D_o-2BjQxMsWfboH-2B-2BcY2qb3IYCoqvthnvff9ftZz0pNEJ2tF1jbVlVBtrlaPYq4av3G-2Bt7mm8IMBuhSVqpCcnh12HsoQ-2BSiGw-2FyHTUky4JFaIjx5N3yakVaDRcDfXlnzwEr0d0hYkuXQ-2BqpePSh9x8ifL92Pji0rlXG52S0d-2FX1zORp0Eodq5GYOSdPU2fi8ffwT7Jc9xpfgMod0dxrFpVEeP6FVqeNGyel-2By4K7C3Jx0c-3D>
>
> My take on PHP is that it has been in a stuck-in-the-middle state for >20
> years, between being a “structured/procedural programming” and
> “object-oriented” language. Kind of like C++ was before V1.1 or so was
> introduced.
>
> Still, while you can use both to create OO code, you can also use both to
> write horrid code that runs just fine and doesn’t use any of the
> class-related language constructs.
>
> Over the years, C++ has been embraced by the OOP community and you don’t
> see anybody demanding that C++ compilers be able to compile any old C code.
> The C standard is still evolving and it keeps taking on bits and pieces of
> things inspired by C++, but it’s really still not an OOP language.
>
> But I’ve heard PHP coders constantly complaining about the fact that the
> use of classes in PHP kills performance. Yeah, as if Python users think
> that’s even relevant! Python is 100% OOP right out of the gate, and they
> seem proud of it. Both are interpreted, and both are probably about as
> efficient compared with a compiled language. (Are there any performance
> comparisons between equivalent PHP and Python apps?)
>
> If an OOP-based interpreted language can attain the "#1 most popular
> language” slot and nobody cares about the little bit of overhead that the
> OO part imposes on the execution time, then perhaps it’s time for PHP
> coders to suck-it-up and learn how to REALLY code in OOP idioms! Until
> then, it’s the PHP programming community that’s shooting itself in the
> feet, not the language. Get rid of the “holes” in the language that allow
> it to process old code that breaks all of the encapsulation rules and make
> the use of classes more direct rather than forcing the use of squirrly
> syntax that is constantly reminding people “this isn’t really an
> object-oriented language … but you can use it that way … IF YOU INSIST”.
>
> This is 2022. Nobody teaches plain old structured/procedural programming
> any more — they don’t even say they’re teaching OOP, it’s just what all
> modern languages support today. Except PHP, which cannot seem to decide if
> it’s ever going to grow up and let go of its procedural roots.
>
> (Perhaps a big part of the problem is all of the old procedural PHP code
> that people are scared to refactor. So instead they just start over in
> Python?)
>
> -David Schwartz
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 27, 2022, at 7:11 PM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Just in time to add another thread that might be as intense as the
> sysd...etc thread.
>
> For years I have heard that people say PHP is not a real language.
>
> One guy says interpreted languages are not real programming languages,
> they are scripting languages.  I guess way back when I was an xBase
> developer I must have not been a real programmer.  Back in the day The only
> compiled xBase was Clipper Summer 87 by Nantucket Corp.  I think it was
> possible to compile xBase code but I never did except with Clipper Summer
> 87.  I think Visual Fox was compiled...
>
> Another says the barrier to entry makes it possible for non-professional
> programmers to get hired and to mess up the code base.  Isn't that a hiring
> manager's issue?
>
> I think PHP is a great language and a lot of others must think so too.
>
> I really liked the decade long ride with PHP 5. I think 7 brought some
> good changes in the area of speed and the removal of Register globals.
>
> PHP must be doing something right because it is run by upwards of 80% of
> the websites on the Internet.
>
> I do think the PHP team is moving too fast.  We now have version 8.
>
> So what is wrong with PHP and where are we going in such a hurry?
>
> And finally why does PHP have to be anything but simple stupid?
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