DSL bonding

Jim azanorak at gmail.com
Tue Aug 25 14:09:56 MST 2020


Wait until Musk's Starlink is available.  Legacy phone companies 
offering DSL won't have a chance.

On 8/22/20 9:05 AM, Michael Butash wrote:
> Exactly, this is a common scenario these days, where people are stuck 
> in their area with their crappy legacy isp's that are unwilling to 
> invest in upgrading, or even just fixing what they have today.  Take 
> back the power.  This is really on a per-ISP basis how good they are 
> about doing so, but cable providers seem WAY ahead of any traditional 
> 2-wire telco.  Cox was actually one of the best I've worked with, they 
> actually fix old cable plants they've acquired over time that are 
> sub-standard, at least around Phoenix.
>
> Back in 2003 when I was looking at doing the residential isp thing, I 
> tried a few things, including mounting a big ass 2.4ghz antenna on my 
> house and doing some 802.11 testing outside to see what sort of 
> performance I'd get even from say my direct neighbor's house.  It was 
> crap, even using proper cisco high-power commercial AP's at the time, 
> so mostly scrapped that as it would be mostly unsupportable and/or 
> unsellable.  There wasn't any better other than Microwave, which 
> was/is still quite pricey to do.
>
> Last year working with a Cali municipal ISP in Santa Monica, they do 
> business and residential last-mile fiber for 1-10gbe connections, 
> typically much cheaper than anyone there as they reuse their own city 
> fiber used for traffic and emergency systems all over the city.  Any 
> sort of construction, particularly street cuts, gets uber expensive, 
> so we started using some wireless point to multipoint devices using 
> technically 5g or mm-wave 60ghz connections that can do I think up to 
> 5 connections per unit, which were small and non-descript.  We dropped 
> these on a stop light we were in already, pointed at the general area 
> we wanted to cover, deployed our first customer in a week.  It helped 
> we *were* the city to do so, but not to say you can't add a small 
> tower in your backyard for the hood.
>
> This came with 1gbps rates to each end node, at roughly 1000ft line of 
> sight, so was a bit more ideal potentially for a residential wireless 
> isp type of setup, or at least localized instances, and just needed to 
> get a 1/10g single-mode ethernet connection to the multipoint unit. 
> Perfect for neighborhood isp setups, this was using Siklu components, 
> but Ubiquiti makes them too, I'm sure others. Even better after they 
> start showing up on Ebay cheap.
>
> I love this sort of networking stuff, working around the Man and such, 
> building ISP's - I'm always happy to help explore these concepts if 
> someone is serious about wanting to do so.  Who's got the VC hookups?  
> Will work for bandwidth.
>
> -mb
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 11:23 AM Jim via PLUG-discuss 
> <plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org 
> <mailto:plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:
>
>     I read something once about a lawyer who set up his own ISP.  The
>     phone company wouldn't supply DSL to the rural area where he
>     lived.  The only internet service available was dialup.  He found
>     that from the roof of his barn, he had line of sight to the
>     building the law firm had its offices in.  He found some
>     interested neighbors and set up a microwave link from his barn to
>     the office.  The local phone company did lease him the lines he
>     needed to provide DSL to his neighbors.
>
>     On 8/20/20 2:28 PM, Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>>     Part of me really would enjoy setting something like this up. The
>>     new High speed and dedicated wireless/microwave tools we have now
>>     are pretty dang phenomenal and could lead to a decent
>>     wireless/wired hybrid internet service.
>>
>>
>>     On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 12:19 PM Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss
>>     <plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
>>     <mailto:plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:
>>
>>         I'm not sure I could live somewhere with crap internet, I
>>         would probably go about forming some sort of local isp of
>>         sorts if enough folks around to be worth it.  It's not
>>         exactly hard, backward telcos and cable companies can figure
>>         it out, it's all capital cost up front and who pays for it,
>>         ideally more than just you.
>>
>>         Circa 2003 at cox business, we had some baller customers with
>>         DS3's to their house (one ran an isp in his basement), which
>>         really meant we installed an OC3 fiber node there, and gave
>>         them a third of it.  These were maybe $2000-3000/mo circuits,
>>         but the construction to get fiber to their crib alone might
>>         be $30-50k.  One customer in the middle of a lake community
>>         was more to build into.  Either they lock you into a 5yr or
>>         more contract to make that construction cost back, or you pay
>>         it up front.
>>
>>         Back then, I worked a lot with the project group that did
>>         construction, so I sat down with someone and we looked at
>>         getting fiber to my house for some baller service myself,
>>         ideally with some employee discount...  They estimated
>>         roughly $35k in cost alone for construction, including
>>         construction street cuts to bury fiber, permitting, etc, let
>>         alone service, and mine wasn't terribly complex.  I
>>         considered reselling to neighbors, but back then expensive
>>         gigabit options probably weren't too attractive to general
>>         consumers in 2003.  I stuck with my cable modem, they didn't
>>         pay that well.
>>
>>         Today that would probably be equivalent to a 10GbE+ drop to
>>         your house, but at scale of cost most likely.  Resell that to
>>         your neighbors for some premium bandwidth, everyone wins, but
>>         presumes your neighbors aren't all luddites.  Some rural
>>         communities are doing this, when AT&T and others aren't
>>         shutting them down.
>>
>>         -mb
>>
>>
>>         On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 9:19 AM Bob Elzer via PLUG-discuss
>>         <plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
>>         <mailto:plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:
>>
>>             I'd brush up on fiber splicing lol
>>
>>
>>             On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 1:40 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss
>>             <plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
>>             <mailto:plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:
>>
>>                 AT&T is still fscked up.  The tech came out today and
>>                 told me that the cutoff for the service is 4800 feet
>>                 and I'm 5136 feet from the box the modem talks to.  
>>                 He ran some test anyway and confirmed it's not
>>                 available.  He told me he has heard of no plans to
>>                 bring fiber to my neighborhood, but said it is
>>                 available in a small town 5 miles up the road from me
>>                 in one direction.  3 miles down the road in the other
>>                 direction is a subdivision that has it.  The fiber
>>                 runs next to the highway less than a hundred yards
>>                 from here.  I guess it's time to see what other
>>                 options if any are available.
>>
>>                 On 8/16/20 10:39 AM, Michael Butash wrote:
>>>                 I think it mostly comes down to the fact that they
>>>                 can only really guarantee 2 or 4 wires to a premise
>>>                 for residential telco, probably more modern
>>>                 deployments a full 8 wires (ala CatX), though their
>>>                 traditional copper distribution isn't built for it
>>>                 unless commercial (their big PED on the roads your
>>>                 neighborhood comes back to. Probably something in
>>>                 the telcordia standards back to ma bell days that
>>>                 says that is just how it is.  Since the plants are
>>>                 non-shielded, non-twisted pair cabling too, it can
>>>                 only modulate so high, particularly when poorly
>>>                 run/done, which is why you're stuck at 12mbps.
>>>
>>>                 If they had to change your home copper, they'd just
>>>                 run fiber, neither will happen likely.
>>>
>>>                 The DSL bonding is already a hack to get more
>>>                 bandwidth when DSL itself is stuck in time now at
>>>                 raw theoretical limits.  Combining more physical
>>>                 channels as these were would be trivial, if copper
>>>                 were available, and telcos wanted to support it.
>>>                 Someone would need to make the modem too. 
>>>                 Technically cable modems do this, literally taking
>>>                 "channels" or slices or spectrum on the wire, and
>>>                 load-balancing them internally, up to 24 or 32
>>>                 channels for multi-gig capabilities.  Same with
>>>                 ethernet, taking 8 into a port-channel and balancing
>>>                 across them, whether 100 megabit or 400 gigabit
>>>                 ethernet.
>>>
>>>                 AT&T is the most ghetto provider out there still,
>>>                 and always has been imho.  Moving to San Jose in
>>>                 '99, there was AT&T Cable TV installed by the
>>>                 owners, which consisted of 2x of your standard coax
>>>                 ala modern cable from the outside, and required a
>>>                 physical a/b switch box to switch between 13
>>>                 channels on one, and 13 channels on another.  First
>>>                 I looked at it, and was confused enough I had to
>>>                 call them and ask wtf the cable "channels" worked to
>>>                 realize just how bad it was, and I then worked for
>>>                 the original @home cable isp company then supporting
>>>                 AT&T cable modems!  The images were even snowy, the
>>>                 service was so bad even a tech couldn't (read:
>>>                 wouldn't) improve. When I asked about a cable modem,
>>>                 they laughed at me, so I had to get DSL (phat
>>>                 1.5mbps then), disconnected the useless cable tv
>>>                 (yay usenet alt.binaries.video even then), and threw
>>>                 up a finger to AT&T.
>>>
>>>                 I can only imagine how bad AT&T's DSL is if they
>>>                 couldn't figure out even coax.  My experience
>>>                 supporting their customers for Cable Modem data in
>>>                 '99, relatively new tech then, wasn't much better,
>>>                 as if the cable plant to your house was broke, it
>>>                 tended to just stay broke despite our rolling their
>>>                 techs to fix it. Then they'd get angry at us for
>>>                 doing so and tell us to stop rolling so many trucks
>>>                 to fix things.
>>>
>>>                 Sigh.
>>>
>>>                 Having grown up in Phoenix where Dimension, and
>>>                 later Cox actually had their shit (relatively)
>>>                 together, this was an inconceivable atrocity but
>>>                 exactly what I'd expect of AT&T. Thanks to them (and
>>>                 Comcast, all the media cartels now really) owning
>>>                 the FCC now with your tax dollars, it'll never,
>>>                 ever, get better either.  Good thing Net Neutrality
>>>                 and consumer rights weren't really needed after all!
>>>
>>>                 -mb
>>>
>>>
>>>                 On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 12:42 PM Jim via
>>>                 PLUG-discuss <plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
>>>                 <mailto:plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>>                     150 Mbps, you're lucky.  Here AT&T has to bond 
>>>                     2 pairs so I can get 25 Mbps.    At least it's
>>>                     not comcast.  I wonder how many pairs they could
>>>                     bond.  Is there a technical limit or is it just
>>>                     a matter of how many they want to bond?  As more
>>>                     people abandon landlines, that leaves more
>>>                     capacity for AT&T to bond multiple pairs for
>>>                     internet customers.
>>>
>>>                     On 8/10/20 11:21 AM, Michael Butash via
>>>                     PLUG-discuss wrote:
>>>>                     So I went through this moving from Cox to
>>>>                     CenturyLink, and pretty much as described,
>>>>                     fairly painless.
>>>>
>>>>                     <tldr>
>>>>
>>>>                     I had scheduled a CL tech to install me for new
>>>>                     service a few years ago, and we first hit the
>>>>                     outside where CL ran their cabling in.  It was
>>>>                     an ancient telephony distribution from the
>>>>                     90's, and I've never had a land-line in my
>>>>                     house since owning it in 2002.  My house built
>>>>                     in 95 at least used cat5 or like, so I have 4
>>>>                     pairs to every room, so 2 pairs I need was just
>>>>                     fine for bonded DSL  He ripped out the old
>>>>                     block, removing the house cabling but the one,
>>>>                     and isolated the particular line we needed to
>>>>                     my office where the modem lives, added an
>>>>                     approved jack, done.  Bonded dsl is 2x 2-wire
>>>>                     channels, and they essentially load-balance
>>>>                     75+75mbps channels.  I have tested this to n-by
>>>>                     gigabit upstreams.
>>>>
>>>>                     Phone only guarantees 2 wires are available, so
>>>>                     telcos built on this 100 years ago are a bit
>>>>                     assed-out on passable high-frequency modulation
>>>>                     schemas in use for data and other things to
>>>>                     move beyond where they're at.  DSL makes up for
>>>>                     this, particularly when double up on wires it
>>>>                     gets better, but still unshielded and prone to
>>>>                     breakdown.  Problem is mostly it isn't
>>>>                     shielded, thus capable of very high frequency
>>>>                     modulation ala Cable/DOCSIS, so it will never
>>>>                     go much further than it has today whereas Cable
>>>>                     scales to gigabits with channelization and QAM
>>>>                     modulation at 32bit rates.
>>>>
>>>>                     VDSL tech is capable of roughly 75mbps per
>>>>                     channel, and 2x of these get you to around CL's
>>>>                     bonded DSL limits.  This also includes your
>>>>                     distance limitations to your local DSLAM, or
>>>>                     regional router that terminates your data that
>>>>                     degrades this eventually further you are from
>>>>                     it, so it's a bit tricky.  It's been stuck here
>>>>                     for years, and pretty much at life end.  This
>>>>                     is why my cousin living half a mile from me can
>>>>                     only get 75mbps from CL and I can with bonded
>>>>                     @150mbps here.  Old crap network there.
>>>>
>>>>                     Fiber, particularly Single Mode, gives you
>>>>                     whatever to ~100GbE, but depends on how your
>>>>                     provider does low-rate Passive Optical
>>>>                     Networking (PON) today for residential fiber. 
>>>>                     Not quite the same as a business data network,
>>>>                     but any fiber is better than copper networks.
>>>>
>>>>                     Why Centurylink's only hope for the future is
>>>>                     fiber vs. copper in new builds.  I like my 25yr
>>>>                     old house still, so no fiber for me ever. 
>>>>                     Unless I street cut my block for fiber myself,
>>>>                     which I've considered, just need to get my
>>>>                     neighbors to buy into me as their new gigabit
>>>>                     isp.  ;)
>>>>
>>>>                     -mb
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                     On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 1:27 PM Jim via
>>>>                     PLUG-discuss <plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
>>>>                     <mailto:plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>                         Ok.  I won't complain if I have to go out
>>>>                         and buy a 4 conductor phone cord.
>>>>
>>>>                         On 8/7/20 9:05 AM, Stephen Partington wrote:
>>>>>                         My understanding of this is that they will
>>>>>                         activate the second pair that is commonly
>>>>>                         used in the RJ-43 port in your wall. This
>>>>>                         will allow 2 lines active to the device.
>>>>>
>>>>>                         Changes inside might need to happen if
>>>>>                         your residence does not have 4 wire (2
>>>>>                         line) compatibility. (IE 2 pairs to the
>>>>>                         jack vs 1 pair)
>>>>>
>>>>>                         On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 9:10 PM Jim via
>>>>>                         PLUG-discuss
>>>>>                         <plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
>>>>>                         <mailto:plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org>>
>>>>>                         wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>                             Where I live, I get AT&T for my DSL
>>>>>                             service. I've signed up for an
>>>>>                             upgrade from 10 Mbps to 25.  I finally
>>>>>                             got someone there who would tell
>>>>>                             me why a technician visit is required
>>>>>                             for the upgrade. They're bonding 2
>>>>>                             pairs to supply the faster speed here.
>>>>>                             I've read up online about DSL
>>>>>                             bonding.  I understand that one pair
>>>>>                             will carry some of the data, and
>>>>>                             the other pair will carry some.  But
>>>>>                             one thing I didn't find out was
>>>>>                             whether or not anything will change
>>>>>                             between the wall jack and the
>>>>>                             modem.  Is everything done outside or
>>>>>                             do they have to come inside?  I
>>>>>                             currently have a 2 conductor cord
>>>>>                             connecting my modem to the wall jack.
>>>>>                             Will that have to be replaced with a 4
>>>>>                             conductor cord?  Do they install
>>>>>                             an extra box outside or inside?  I
>>>>>                             guess all will be answered on the
>>>>>                             18th when the guy is scheduled to be
>>>>>                             here.   I'm really curious how this
>>>>>                             works.
>>>>>                             ---------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>                         -- 
>>>>>                         A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm
>>>>>                         clock, will prevent you from rolling over
>>>>>                         and going back to sleep after you hit the
>>>>>                         snooze button.
>>>>>
>>>>>                         Stephen
>>>>>
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>>
>>     -- 
>>     A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you
>>     from rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the
>>     snooze button.
>>
>>     Stephen
>>
>>
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