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<p>Wait until Musk's Starlink is available. Legacy phone companies
offering DSL won't have a chance.<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/22/20 9:05 AM, Michael Butash
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CADWnDsuCmzvODPNOZWL1YGN0Z+u0fmEZOEFbbKekdtbGF_sReg@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Exactly, this is a common scenario these days, where people
are stuck in their area with their crappy legacy isp's that
are unwilling to invest in upgrading, or even just fixing what
they have today. Take back the power. This is really on a
per-ISP basis how good they are about doing so, but cable
providers seem WAY ahead of any traditional 2-wire telco. Cox
was actually one of the best I've worked with, they actually
fix old cable plants they've acquired over time that are
sub-standard, at least around Phoenix.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Back in 2003 when I was looking at doing the residential
isp thing, I tried a few things, including mounting a big ass
2.4ghz antenna on my house and doing some 802.11 testing
outside to see what sort of performance I'd get even from say
my direct neighbor's house. It was crap, even using proper
cisco high-power commercial AP's at the time, so mostly
scrapped that as it would be mostly unsupportable and/or
unsellable. There wasn't any better other than Microwave,
which was/is still quite pricey to do.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Last year working with a Cali municipal ISP in Santa
Monica, they do business and residential last-mile fiber for
1-10gbe connections, typically much cheaper than anyone there
as they reuse their own city fiber used for traffic and
emergency systems all over the city. Any sort of
construction, particularly street cuts, gets uber expensive,
so we started using some wireless point to multipoint devices
using technically 5g or mm-wave 60ghz connections that can do
I think up to 5 connections per unit, which were small and
non-descript. We dropped these on a stop light we were in
already, pointed at the general area we wanted to cover,
deployed our first customer in a week. It helped we *were*
the city to do so, but not to say you can't add a small tower
in your backyard for the hood.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This came with 1gbps rates to each end node, at roughly
1000ft line of sight, so was a bit more ideal potentially for
a residential wireless isp type of setup, or at least
localized instances, and just needed to get a 1/10g
single-mode ethernet connection to the multipoint unit.
Perfect for neighborhood isp setups, this was using Siklu
components, but Ubiquiti makes them too, I'm sure others.
Even better after they start showing up on Ebay cheap.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I love this sort of networking stuff, working around the
Man and such, building ISP's - I'm always happy to help
explore these concepts if someone is serious about wanting to
do so. Who's got the VC hookups? Will work for bandwidth.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-mb</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 11:23
AM Jim via PLUG-discuss <<a
href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>I read something once about a lawyer who set up his own
ISP. The phone company wouldn't supply DSL to the rural
area where he lived. The only internet service available
was dialup. He found that from the roof of his barn, he
had line of sight to the building the law firm had its
offices in. He found some interested neighbors and set up
a microwave link from his barn to the office. The local
phone company did lease him the lines he needed to provide
DSL to his neighbors. <br>
</p>
<div>On 8/20/20 2:28 PM, Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet
ms,sans-serif">Part of me really would enjoy setting
something like this up. The new High speed and
dedicated wireless/microwave tools we have now are
pretty dang phenomenal and could lead to a decent
wireless/wired hybrid internet service.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet
ms,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug 20, 2020
at 12:19 PM Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss <<a
href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I'm not sure I could live somewhere with crap
internet, I would probably go about forming some
sort of local isp of sorts if enough folks around
to be worth it. It's not exactly hard, backward
telcos and cable companies can figure it out, it's
all capital cost up front and who pays for it,
ideally more than just you.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Circa 2003 at cox business, we had some baller
customers with DS3's to their house (one ran an
isp in his basement), which really meant we
installed an OC3 fiber node there, and gave them a
third of it. These were maybe $2000-3000/mo
circuits, but the construction to get fiber to
their crib alone might be $30-50k. One customer
in the middle of a lake community was more to
build into. Either they lock you into a 5yr or
more contract to make that construction cost back,
or you pay it up front.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Back then, I worked a lot with the project
group that did construction, so I sat down with
someone and we looked at getting fiber to my house
for some baller service myself, ideally with some
employee discount... They estimated roughly $35k
in cost alone for construction, including
construction street cuts to bury fiber,
permitting, etc, let alone service, and mine
wasn't terribly complex. I considered reselling
to neighbors, but back then expensive gigabit
options probably weren't too attractive to general
consumers in 2003. I stuck with my cable modem,
they didn't pay that well.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Today that would probably be equivalent to a
10GbE+ drop to your house, but at scale of cost
most likely. Resell that to your neighbors for
some premium bandwidth, everyone wins, but
presumes your neighbors aren't all luddites. Some
rural communities are doing this, when AT&T
and others aren't shutting them down.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-mb</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug 20,
2020 at 9:19 AM Bob Elzer via PLUG-discuss <<a
href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">I'd brush up on fiber splicing
lol
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Aug
18, 2020, 1:40 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss <<a
href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>AT&T is still fscked up. The tech
came out today and told me that the cutoff
for the service is 4800 feet and I'm 5136
feet from the box the modem talks to. He
ran some test anyway and confirmed it's
not available. He told me he has heard of
no plans to bring fiber to my
neighborhood, but said it is available in
a small town 5 miles up the road from me
in one direction. 3 miles down the road
in the other direction is a subdivision
that has it. The fiber runs next to the
highway less than a hundred yards from
here. I guess it's time to see what other
options if any are available.<br>
</p>
<div>On 8/16/20 10:39 AM, Michael Butash
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I think it mostly comes down to the
fact that they can only really
guarantee 2 or 4 wires to a premise
for residential telco, probably more
modern deployments a full 8 wires (ala
CatX), though their traditional copper
distribution isn't built for it unless
commercial (their big PED on the roads
your neighborhood comes back to.
Probably something in the telcordia
standards back to ma bell days that
says that is just how it is. Since
the plants are non-shielded,
non-twisted pair cabling too, it can
only modulate so high, particularly
when poorly run/done, which is why
you're stuck at 12mbps.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If they had to change your home
copper, they'd just run fiber, neither
will happen likely. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The DSL bonding is already a hack
to get more bandwidth when DSL itself
is stuck in time now at raw
theoretical limits. Combining more
physical channels as these were would
be trivial, if copper were available,
and telcos wanted to support it.
Someone would need to make the modem
too. Technically cable modems do
this, literally taking "channels" or
slices or spectrum on the wire, and
load-balancing them internally, up to
24 or 32 channels for multi-gig
capabilities. Same with ethernet,
taking 8 into a port-channel and
balancing across them, whether 100
megabit or 400 gigabit ethernet. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>AT&T is the most ghetto
provider out there still, and always
has been imho. Moving to San Jose in
'99, there was AT&T Cable TV
installed by the owners, which
consisted of 2x of your standard coax
ala modern cable from the outside, and
required a physical a/b switch box to
switch between 13 channels on one, and
13 channels on another. First I
looked at it, and was confused enough
I had to call them and ask wtf the
cable "channels" worked to realize
just how bad it was, and I then worked
for the original @home cable isp
company then supporting AT&T cable
modems! The images were even snowy,
the service was so bad even a tech
couldn't (read: wouldn't) improve.
When I asked about a cable modem, they
laughed at me, so I had to get DSL
(phat 1.5mbps then), disconnected the
useless cable tv (yay usenet
alt.binaries.video even then), and
threw up a finger to AT&T.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I can only imagine how bad
AT&T's DSL is if they couldn't
figure out even coax. My experience
supporting their customers for Cable
Modem data in '99, relatively new tech
then, wasn't much better, as if the
cable plant to your house was broke,
it tended to just stay broke despite
our rolling their techs to fix it.
Then they'd get angry at us for doing
so and tell us to stop rolling so many
trucks to fix things.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sigh.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Having grown up in Phoenix where
Dimension, and later Cox actually had
their shit (relatively) together, this
was an inconceivable atrocity but
exactly what I'd expect of AT&T.
Thanks to them (and Comcast, all the
media cartels now really) owning the
FCC now with your tax dollars, it'll
never, ever, get better either. Good
thing Net Neutrality and consumer
rights weren't really needed after
all!<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-mb</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On
Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 12:42 PM Jim via
PLUG-discuss <<a
href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>150 Mbps, you're lucky. Here
AT&T has to bond 2 pairs so I
can get 25 Mbps. At least it's
not comcast. I wonder how many
pairs they could bond. Is there a
technical limit or is it just a
matter of how many they want to
bond? As more people abandon
landlines, that leaves more
capacity for AT&T to bond
multiple pairs for internet
customers.<br>
</p>
<div>On 8/10/20 11:21 AM, Michael
Butash via PLUG-discuss wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>So I went through this
moving from Cox to
CenturyLink, and pretty much
as described, fairly painless.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><tldr><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I had scheduled a CL tech
to install me for new service
a few years ago, and we first
hit the outside where CL ran
their cabling in. It was an
ancient telephony distribution
from the 90's, and I've never
had a land-line in my house
since owning it in 2002. My
house built in 95 at least
used cat5 or like, so I have 4
pairs to every room, so 2
pairs I need was just fine for
bonded DSL He ripped out the
old block, removing the house
cabling but the one, and
isolated the particular line
we needed to my office where
the modem lives, added an
approved jack, done. Bonded
dsl is 2x 2-wire channels, and
they essentially load-balance
75+75mbps channels. I have
tested this to n-by gigabit
upstreams.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Phone only guarantees 2
wires are available, so telcos
built on this 100 years ago
are a bit assed-out on
passable high-frequency
modulation schemas in use for
data and other things to move
beyond where they're at. DSL
makes up for this,
particularly when double up on
wires it gets better, but
still unshielded and prone to
breakdown. Problem is mostly
it isn't shielded, thus
capable of very high frequency
modulation ala Cable/DOCSIS,
so it will never go much
further than it has today
whereas Cable scales to
gigabits with channelization
and QAM modulation at 32bit
rates.</div>
<br>
<div>VDSL tech is capable of
roughly 75mbps per channel,
and 2x of these get you to
around CL's bonded DSL
limits. This also includes
your distance limitations to
your local DSLAM, or regional
router that terminates your
data that degrades this
eventually further you are
from it, so it's a bit
tricky. It's been stuck here
for years, and pretty much at
life end. This is why my
cousin living half a mile from
me can only get 75mbps from CL
and I can with bonded @150mbps
here. Old crap network there.<br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Fiber, particularly
Single Mode, gives you
whatever to ~100GbE, but
depends on how your provider
does low-rate Passive
Optical Networking (PON)
today for residential
fiber. Not quite the same
as a business data network,
but any fiber is better than
copper networks.<br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Why Centurylink's only hope
for the future is fiber vs.
copper in new builds. I like
my 25yr old house still, so no
fiber for me ever. Unless I
street cut my block for fiber
myself, which I've considered,
just need to get my neighbors
to buy into me as their new
gigabit isp. ;)<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-mb</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr"
class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Aug
8, 2020 at 1:27 PM Jim via
PLUG-discuss <<a
href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Ok. I won't complain if
I have to go out and buy a
4 conductor phone cord.<br>
</p>
<div>On 8/7/20 9:05 AM,
Stephen Partington wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div
class="gmail_default">My
understanding of this
is that they will
activate the second
pair that is commonly
used in the RJ-43 port
in your wall. This
will allow 2 lines
active to the device.</div>
<div
class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_default">Changes
inside might need to
happen if your
residence does not
have 4 wire (2 line)
compatibility. (IE 2
pairs to the jack vs 1
pair)</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr"
class="gmail_attr">On
Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at
9:10 PM Jim via
PLUG-discuss <<a
href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px
0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px
solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Where
I live, I get AT&T
for my DSL service.
I've signed up for an
<br>
upgrade from 10 Mbps
to 25. I finally got
someone there who
would tell <br>
me why a technician
visit is required for
the upgrade. They're
bonding 2 <br>
pairs to supply the
faster speed here.
I've read up online
about DSL <br>
bonding. I understand
that one pair will
carry some of the
data, and <br>
the other pair will
carry some. But one
thing I didn't find
out was <br>
whether or not
anything will change
between the wall jack
and the <br>
modem. Is everything
done outside or do
they have to come
inside? I <br>
currently have a 2
conductor cord
connecting my modem to
the wall jack. <br>
Will that have to be
replaced with a 4
conductor cord? Do
they install <br>
an extra box outside
or inside? I guess
all will be answered
on the <br>
18th when the guy is
scheduled to be
here. I'm really
curious how this <br>
works.<br>
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<div dir="ltr">A mouse
trap, placed on top of
your alarm clock, will
prevent you from rolling
over and going back to
sleep after you hit the
snooze button.<br>
<br>
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-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm
clock, will prevent you from rolling over and going back
to sleep after you hit the snooze button.<br>
<br>
Stephen<br>
<br>
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