****Re: guess what....

Sun Aug 2 22:08:54 MST 2009

Mike,

The list seems to have become more political lately.  I think your
comments about dishonest people or something set this thread off.  Not
your fault, if I recall and I'm not worried about going back to find
derail point.

Don't worry about it, personally.  I worry about it for the group when
too much "non-Linux" and "non-group" talk goes on, we lose people.

Alan

On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 10:01 PM, mike havens<bmike1 at gmail.com> wrote:
> my announcement that I'm coming back to Phoenix turned into this? Alan, I
> didn't have any idea the news I was returning would become so devisive..
>
> On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 6:49 PM, Lyle Tuttle <L.tuttle at cox.net> wrote:
>>
>> At 02:35 PM 8/2/2009, you wrote:
>>
>> One of the 2 former posts is typical "party diatribe"; you decide which!
>>
>> The irony of no health care in our economy is that unless you
>> constantly replace people (who die, fail to make it in employment or
>> become homeless)  [while also keeping the subset of "healthy"
>> individuals completely separate] you win.
>>
>> The benefit of socialized health care includes research and
>> statistics, eradication of diseases like STD's, TB and childhood
>> illness, and control of the flu, and geratric survivial (which assists
>> our children's children socially).  The system can support it, and in
>> 20 years the benefits in advances in technology, industry and spcial
>> stability are incredible.
>>
>> It's humane, and it's required to eradicate smoking, drug and alcohol
>> abuse (often self medication for physical and emotional illness)
>> alone.
>>
>> All systems in our society are inefficient - that doesn't mean we
>> don't need IT systems for instance, it means we need EFFICIENCY
>> (Canada as an example).
>> My father would turn over in his grave, since he also wanted a free
>> economy, but would agree that people are worth health care.
>>
>> If we REALLY  want to do better with health care, instead of spending
>> trillions of dollars to [blatant party diatribe follows] counsel you on how
>> to end your life (yes, the new plan proposes to do that if you are 65+ every
>> 5 years - mandatory), [end, blatant party diatribe] why not spend some money
>> here?
>>
>> http://www.canaryfoundation.org/index.cfm
>>
>> lyle
>>
>>
>> Now, border control is another issue entirely!
>>
>>
>> On 8/2/09, Craig White <craigwhite at azapple.com> wrote:
>> > On Sun, 2009-08-02 at 19:16 -0700, Vaughn Treude wrote:
>> >> Lisa Kachold wrote:
>> >> > On 7/30/09, JD Austin <jd at twingeckos.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> The 'other' model isn't working any better.  My wife works in an
>> >> >> Urgent
>> >> >> Care; tons of Canadians come here to get the health care they need.
>> >> >> I
>> >> >> think
>> >> >> the whole industry needs to be more competitive; most things in
>> >> >> health
>> >> >> care
>> >> >> shouldn't cost what they do.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> > Inefficiency in preventative care, diagnostics, errors in surgery,
>> >> > the
>> >> > truth is incredibly expensive.
>> >> >
>> >> > But just because Canadians come here for care doesn't mean it's not
>> >> > working.
>> >> >
>> >> <rant>
>> >> If by "working", you mean the majority of Canadians people accept it,
>> >> and even think it's a good thing, I suppose it is. They're just very
>> >> lucky they have a "safety valve", that is, a large semi-free country
>> >> whose borders are within 100 miles of 90% of their population.
>> >> Single-payer is, IMHO, the biggest piece of economic foolishness ever
>> >> devised. Let's give an absolute monopoly to the most inefficient,
>> >> corrupt organization ever invented by humans (government.) As for the
>> >> notion that socialized medicine is cheaper, I don't believe it for a
>> >> second. Governments can shift their costs to other agencies; the
>> >> Pentagon does it all the time. I assume, for example, the cost of
>> >> having
>> >> "premiums" collected by the CRA doesn't get counted in the balance
>> >> sheet. Not to mention the fact that a huge portion of the overhead
>> >> costs
>> >> of private insurers in the US is red tape imposed by government
>> >> bureaucracies.
>> >> Not that I'm necessarily endorsing the current system. There were a lot
>> >> of good not-for-profit medical insurers in this country until Richard
>> >> Nixon changed the tax laws, causing a massive takeover by greedy HMO's.
>> >> I'd like to see a system of decentralized medical cooperatives with
>> >> for-profit companies as a supplement.
>> >> BTW, I don't blame the immigrants, but I do blame the lawyers. :-)
>> >> </rant>
>> >>
>> >> No offense, just my two cents. :-)
>> >> There, I feel so much better.
>> >> Vaughn
>> > ----
>> > seeing as how the political discussions do not die off, I am going to
>> > sound off here.
>> >
>> > The entire premise of the Canadian health care system was to provide a
>> > single tier of medical coverage for all and no amount of wealth would
>> > provide a better level of health care. You cannot devise a system that
>> > is more fundamentally fair to everyone.
>> >
>> > The people who come here from Canada are doing elective surgeries either
>> > not covered by the health care system in Canada or prioritized in a
>> > manner that does not suit the person with money to pay elsewhere.
>> >
>> > The language that you use Vaughn is loaded and inaccurate...
>> > - we are not a safety valve, we provide elective medical care to those
>> > who want to pay and go elsewhere.
>> >
>> > - the issue of a monopolized health care run by the government happens
>> > to be that which is practiced in all other western nations. We spend
>> > more per capita on health care than any other industrialized nation and
>> > yet approximately 25% of our citizens do not have coverage.
>> >
>> > - the insurance companies do worse managing the health care than
>> > government could ever do. They practice murder by spreadsheet. They
>> > invent rules for exclusions. Someone in this country WITH health
>> > insurance goes bankrupt in this country every 30 seconds because of
>> > exclusions, deductibles, etc.
>> >
>> > - blaming the government red tape for the profits of insurers is absurd
>> > to its core.
>> >
>> > An American citizen visiting Canada can get free health care if needed.
>> >
>> > Any solution short of single-payer will fail and we will be back here
>> > again, with more people excluded from coverage by insurance companies,
>> > more people bankrupted by illness only because the companies with
>> > profits at stake...insurance companies and drug companies will spend
>> > unreasonable amounts of money to influence public opinion and elected
>> > candidates.
>> >
>> > Craig
>> >
>> >
>> > --
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>> >
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>>
>> --
>> http://linuxgazette.net/165/kachold.html
>> (623)239-3392
>> (503)754-4452 www.obnosis.com
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>
>
> --
> :-)~MIKE~(-:
>
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