****Re: guess what....

Sun Aug 2 22:01:51 MST 2009

my announcement that I'm coming back to Phoenix turned into this? Alan, I
didn't have any idea the news I was returning would become so devisive..

On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 6:49 PM, Lyle Tuttle <L.tuttle at cox.net> wrote:

>  At 02:35 PM 8/2/2009, you wrote:
>
> One of the 2 former posts is typical "party diatribe"; you decide which!
>
> The irony of no health care in our economy is that unless you
> constantly replace people (who die, fail to make it in employment or
> become homeless)  [while also keeping the subset of "healthy"
> individuals completely separate] you win.
>
> The benefit of socialized health care includes research and
> statistics, eradication of diseases like STD's, TB and childhood
> illness, and control of the flu, and geratric survivial (which assists
> our children's children socially).  The system can support it, and in
> 20 years the benefits in advances in technology, industry and spcial
> stability are incredible.
>
> It's humane, and it's required to eradicate smoking, drug and alcohol
> abuse (often self medication for physical and emotional illness)
> alone.
>
> All systems in our society are inefficient - that doesn't mean we
> don't need IT systems for instance, it means we need EFFICIENCY
> (Canada as an example).
> My father would turn over in his grave, since he also wanted a free
> economy, but would agree that people are worth health care.
>
>
> If we REALLY  want to do better with health care, instead of spending
> trillions of dollars to [blatant party diatribe follows] counsel you on
> how to end your life (yes, the new plan proposes to do that if you are 65+
> every 5 years - mandatory), [end, blatant party diatribe] why not spend
> some money here?
>
>  http://www.canaryfoundation.org/index.cfm
>
> lyle
>
>
>
> Now, border control is another issue entirely!
>
>
> On 8/2/09, Craig White <craigwhite at azapple.com> wrote:
> > On Sun, 2009-08-02 at 19:16 -0700, Vaughn Treude wrote:
> >> Lisa Kachold wrote:
> >> > On 7/30/09, JD Austin <jd at twingeckos.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> The 'other' model isn't working any better.  My wife works in an
> Urgent
> >> >> Care; tons of Canadians come here to get the health care they need.
> I
> >> >> think
> >> >> the whole industry needs to be more competitive; most things in
> health
> >> >> care
> >> >> shouldn't cost what they do.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> > Inefficiency in preventative care, diagnostics, errors in surgery, the
> >> > truth is incredibly expensive.
> >> >
> >> > But just because Canadians come here for care doesn't mean it's not
> >> > working.
> >> >
> >> <rant>
> >> If by "working", you mean the majority of Canadians people accept it,
> >> and even think it's a good thing, I suppose it is. They're just very
> >> lucky they have a "safety valve", that is, a large semi-free country
> >> whose borders are within 100 miles of 90% of their population.
> >> Single-payer is, IMHO, the biggest piece of economic foolishness ever
> >> devised. Let's give an absolute monopoly to the most inefficient,
> >> corrupt organization ever invented by humans (government.) As for the
> >> notion that socialized medicine is cheaper, I don't believe it for a
> >> second. Governments can shift their costs to other agencies; the
> >> Pentagon does it all the time. I assume, for example, the cost of having
> >> "premiums" collected by the CRA doesn't get counted in the balance
> >> sheet. Not to mention the fact that a huge portion of the overhead costs
> >> of private insurers in the US is red tape imposed by government
> >> bureaucracies.
> >> Not that I'm necessarily endorsing the current system. There were a lot
> >> of good not-for-profit medical insurers in this country until Richard
> >> Nixon changed the tax laws, causing a massive takeover by greedy HMO's.
> >> I'd like to see a system of decentralized medical cooperatives with
> >> for-profit companies as a supplement.
> >> BTW, I don't blame the immigrants, but I do blame the lawyers. :-)
> >> </rant>
> >>
> >> No offense, just my two cents. :-)
> >> There, I feel so much better.
> >> Vaughn
> > ----
> > seeing as how the political discussions do not die off, I am going to
> > sound off here.
> >
> > The entire premise of the Canadian health care system was to provide a
> > single tier of medical coverage for all and no amount of wealth would
> > provide a better level of health care. You cannot devise a system that
> > is more fundamentally fair to everyone.
> >
> > The people who come here from Canada are doing elective surgeries either
> > not covered by the health care system in Canada or prioritized in a
> > manner that does not suit the person with money to pay elsewhere.
> >
> > The language that you use Vaughn is loaded and inaccurate...
> > - we are not a safety valve, we provide elective medical care to those
> > who want to pay and go elsewhere.
> >
> > - the issue of a monopolized health care run by the government happens
> > to be that which is practiced in all other western nations. We spend
> > more per capita on health care than any other industrialized nation and
> > yet approximately 25% of our citizens do not have coverage.
> >
> > - the insurance companies do worse managing the health care than
> > government could ever do. They practice murder by spreadsheet. They
> > invent rules for exclusions. Someone in this country WITH health
> > insurance goes bankrupt in this country every 30 seconds because of
> > exclusions, deductibles, etc.
> >
> > - blaming the government red tape for the profits of insurers is absurd
> > to its core.
> >
> > An American citizen visiting Canada can get free health care if needed.
> >
> > Any solution short of single-payer will fail and we will be back here
> > again, with more people excluded from coverage by insurance companies,
> > more people bankrupted by illness only because the companies with
> > profits at stake...insurance companies and drug companies will spend
> > unreasonable amounts of money to influence public opinion and elected
> > candidates.
> >
> > Craig
> >
> >
> > --
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> > believed to be clean.
> >
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>
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-- 
:-)~MIKE~(-:
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